Feminism- valuable success or grotesque failure?

[afleitch]

What do you think? I was stuck between 3 and 4- but I plumed for 4. I do think men get a raw deal.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

None of the above

[Platypus]

Hmmn, it was okay-but equality hasn't been reached. Bad methods, good cause, and I hope in future it's calmer but swifter.

Did that make sense?

[John Dibble]

Some good, some bad. Feminism in it's current form isn't really about equality for women, it's about the innate superiority of women to men and bashing men at every turn. Feminism as it is presents the image of males as slow, lazy, violent, and stupid - and yet women are perfection and can do no wrong, unless they aren't feminists, in which case they are weak and slaves to men.

Seriously, the feminist movement gives men such a bad rep - look at commercials nowadays. How often do you see a stupid husband fail miserably or comically blunder up at some simple task, only to have the woman do it right the first time. And then there's those feminist television channels - Lifetime and Oxygen. Half the movies are about violent men and their wives who finally liberate themselves, usually without the help of any man. The feminist movement fails to realize that men today are quite the opposite from abusive, outside of a few cases - hell, the mere idea of beating a woman sickens most of us, partially because we've been so indoctrinated against doing it.

So, in conclusion - Dear Feminists, yes, we men of this country realize that women are people too and should be treated with respect, because many of them are intelligent and willful. However, we do request that you return the favor and respect men because many of us are also intelligent and willful. Yes, some of us are stupid and violent, but the same can be said of some women, so let's stop pretending that all problems result from men and get on with our lives. Thanks for your time.

[Platypus]

I agree with every word, and your first paragraph was a great summary.

+4 brownie points!

[minionofmidas]

On balance, I went for option 1. It didn't sound quite right but it sounded closest. Some of the rhetoric is pretty stupid, though.

[The Duke]

Nice goal, bad methods.  And some bad results.

Feminism has tied the drive for equality in with things like legalized abortion and such, which has hurt the drive for real equality by dividing people over hot button issues.

It also created lots of angry bithces who need to shave their legs and not take everything personally.

[dazzleman]

Ether 3 or 4.  And when speaking of certain women's movement leaders, 5 applies.

Feminism at this point is about discriminating against men.  Period.  Feminists are perfectly willing to steal from men the rights they demand for themselves.

I believe in equality for women, but that is not currently the goal of feminism, if it ever was.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

None of the above

[Gabu]

When the feminist movement started, it was a very good thing.  Women were drastically looked down upon when they tried to do anything that was a "male" thing to do for about the first two-thirds of the 19th Century.

My grandmother and mother and living proof of this.  When my grandmother graduated from high school in the '30s, she wanted to be a doctor.  When she went to talk to an advisor about the issue, the advisor sternly informed her that she actually wanted to be a nurse.  That was the end of that.  When my mother was going to university even in the '60s, none of the professors took her seriously because they all figured that she was just there to find a man, get pregnant, and become a housewife.  Clearly, radical reform of this situation was needed, and the feminist movement was there to do just that.

Today, women are very, very close to achieving total equality in the workplace.  There still are some lingering stigmas that make women feel like they shouldn't do "male" things, but if a female does decide to do a "male" thing, nobody will argue.  Most would even encourage her.

There's just one problem: the feminist movement hasn't died down.

Not satisfied with equality with men, now the feminist movement (or at least a large part of it) seems dead-set on making men inferior to women.  For example, sexist jokes against men are perceived as an expression of a woman's liberty, while sexist jokes against women are considered disgusting, misogynistic, etc.  Women are allowed to playfully hit men - that's "cute" - but men aren't allowed to playfully hit women - that's "assault and battery".  Men are looked down upon both when they're the giver and when they're the receiver of abuse, the former because their actions are rightly perceived as horrible and the latter because it's supposedly a reflection of a man's inadequate masculinity to be pushed around by a female.  Females, on the other hand, get off scot-free in both cases.

I'm all for female equality to men, and it's because of that, not in spite of it, that I can't stand the modern feminist movement.  They've gone past wanting simply equality for females, and in doing so, they've gone too far.

If a feminist does want simply equality, good for her.  I agree completely and will cheer her on.  From what I've seen, however, she wouldn't represent the majority of feminists.

[nclib]

Option 1, though I don't like how it's worded.

Although the feminist movement has achieved a lot, there is still more to be accomplished.

I find it interesting that some posters think that the feminist movement has achieved full equality when women aren't even paid the same as men for the same work.

[Gabu]

I find it interesting that some posters think that the feminist movement has achieved full equality when women aren't even paid the same as men for the same work.

I said that they're "very close".  I recognize that they're not equal yet, but if you look at the way that it used to be, you'd agree that that statement is true.  Receiving less pay than men for the same work, while it's something that obviously should be rectified, is not exactly comparable to the way women used to be treated.

As I said before, if a woman really does want to fight for female equality with men, I'll fight along side.  That said, however, it's just a fact that a large chunk of the modern feminist movement wants women to be superior to men, whether they want to admit it or not.

[Beet]

Option 1.

Also, I must be the only one who thinks that a considerable distance must be traveled to true gender equality-- for both men and women.

Men have yet to achieve equality. We have fewer choices; the stay at home dad is usually not an option. A man who shows emotion or who doesn't fit the stupid 'Homer Simpson'  stereotype is at risk of being labelled 'unmasculine'. Men are still expected to pay alimony in the event of a divorce even if the wife did not earn a penny, just to support a high lifestyle. We are overwhelmingly discriminated against in the child custody process. Our role as fathers has been suppressed by society.

Most of the disadvantage however still falls to women.

Only about 22% of Congress and state legislators are women, and even less for the Senate. There have yet been no women Presidents or Vice Presidents.

Women are still paid less, even when adjusting for factors such as taking time off for children or choice of profession. This difference is especially pronounced at the executive level. In movies for example men are given far more leading roles.

Unlike most industrial countries, there is still no law that allows parents to take paid leave for raising a baby in its first months, and this falls disproportionately on women. Yet women are still expected to be primary caretakers.

The sexual double standard obviously exists. While men and women are nearly as sexually active, women face more criticism for being so, and given negative connotations whereas for men there are positive ones.

Bottom line-

The truth in any social situation is that whomever gets the most attention has the most power. In society today men get more attention. For example, try the most simple, basic thing imaginable.

Do a 'Google' search for the word "he"
688 million results
"she"
293 million results

"his" plus "him"
890 million results

"hers" plus "her"
385 million results

Until these results are roughly equal there probably will be oppression of women by society.

[TeePee4Prez]

Between 1 and 2.  I agree with almost all of it's objectives, but some of it can be interpreted as anti-man.  As someone has pointed out, men also haven't been accepted in some roles in society such as the "stay-at-home dad."  I do think there are many cases where the woman can better provide and the man can better ntuure, but it's still socially unacceptable.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

When the feminist movement started, it was a very good thing.  Women were drastically looked down upon when they tried to do anything that was a "male" thing to do for about the first two-thirds of the 19th Century.

My grandmother and mother and living proof of this.  When my grandmother graduated from high school in the '30s, she wanted to be a doctor.  When she went to talk to an advisor about the issue, the advisor sternly informed her that she actually wanted to be a nurse.  That was the end of that.  When my mother was going to university even in the '60s, none of the professors took her seriously because they all figured that she was just there to find a man, get pregnant, and become a housewife.  Clearly, radical reform of this situation was needed, and the feminist movement was there to do just that.

Today, women are very, very close to achieving total equality in the workplace.  There still are some lingering stigmas that make women feel like they shouldn't do "male" things, but if a female does decide to do a "male" thing, nobody will argue.  Most would even encourage her.

There's just one problem: the feminist movement hasn't died down.

Not satisfied with equality with men, now the feminist movement (or at least a large part of it) seems dead-set on making men inferior to women.  For example, sexist jokes against men are perceived as an expression of a woman's liberty, while sexist jokes against women are considered disgusting, misogynistic, etc.  Women are allowed to playfully hit men - that's "cute" - but men aren't allowed to playfully hit women - that's "assault and battery".  Men are looked down upon both when they're the giver and when they're the receiver of abuse, the former because their actions are rightly perceived as horrible and the latter because it's supposedly a reflection of a man's inadequate masculinity to be pushed around by a female.  Females, on the other hand, get off scot-free in both cases.

I'm all for female equality to men, and it's because of that, not in spite of it, that I can't stand the modern feminist movement.  They've gone past wanting simply equality for females, and in doing so, they've gone too far.

If a feminist does want simply equality, good for her.  I agree completely and will cheer her on.  From what I've seen, however, she wouldn't represent the majority of feminists.

I agree with that. A lot of the more radical feminists are also disgusting hypocrites... let's take Greer;

1. She has on several occasions posed for (hard core) pornographic magazines.
2. She has defended female "circumsision" (read: Genital Mutilation)
3. She is currently an "inmate" (or whatever them call 'em) on a sh**tty reality T.V show ("Celebrity Big Brother").#
4. She's a sexist female chauvanist
5. She doesn't know how to draw but likes to prat around as a critic

[WalterMitty]

for the most part, i agree with the goals of feminism.

however, the movement has two big problems--1.  it is 'led' by radicals.  2.  their priorities are mixed up.

feminists place too much emphasis on abortion.  regardless of your feelings on abortion, it doesnt matter to most women.  most women are more concerned with things like equal pay for eqaul work, the glass ceiling, domestic violence, affordable child care, etc etc.

[WalterMitty]

and another thing, men should be speaking up for their rights wherever they get squashed.

the criminal justice system is horribly biased against men.  andrea yates gets a new trial...guess what if she was a man, shed long since been executed.  a male susan smith wouldnt be alive to be having sex with prison guards either.

and we all know family courts are biased against men.  child custody?  ha.  equal justice doesnt apply to that.

[??????????]

for the most part, i agree with the goals of feminism.

however, the movement has two big problems--1.  it is 'led' by radicals.  2.  their priorities are mixed up.

feminists place too much emphasis on abortion.  regardless of your feelings on abortion, it doesnt matter to most women.  most women are more concerned with things like equal pay for eqaul work, the glass ceiling, domestic violence, affordable child care, etc etc.

You sound like a liberal here.

and another thing, men should be speaking up for their rights wherever they get squashed.

the criminal justice system is horribly biased against men. andrea yates gets a new trial...guess what if she was a man, shed long since been executed. a male susan smith wouldnt be alive to be having sex with prison guards either.

and we all know family courts are biased against men. child custody? ha. equal justice doesnt apply to that.

Now you sound like a conservative.

I'm confused.

[WalterMitty]

for the most part, i agree with the goals of feminism.

however, the movement has two big problems--1.  it is 'led' by radicals.  2.  their priorities are mixed up.

feminists place too much emphasis on abortion.  regardless of your feelings on abortion, it doesnt matter to most women.  most women are more concerned with things like equal pay for eqaul work, the glass ceiling, domestic violence, affordable child care, etc etc.

You sound like a liberal here.

and another thing, men should be speaking up for their rights wherever they get squashed.

the criminal justice system is horribly biased against men. andrea yates gets a new trial...guess what if she was a man, shed long since been executed. a male susan smith wouldnt be alive to be having sex with prison guards either.

and we all know family courts are biased against men. child custody? ha. equal justice doesnt apply to that.

Now you sound like a conservative.

I'm confused.

im neither a liberal nor a conservative.

[Smash255]

Men & Women should have the same rights period.  The court system especially with family courts is unfair to men.  However, women still don't have equal rights to men.  The fact that a woman gets paid about 1/3 less on the average for the exact same job is a disgrace.  I'm certainly no male version of Marcy Darcy (for those that watched Married with Children) when it comes down to feminist issues (I tend not to pay attention to them) but I do think men & women should have equal rights, equal pay for the same job, etc & be treated equally.  We haven't reached that point yet

[A18]

I know women get paid a lot less, the reason being that they do a lot less work.

As for them getting paid less for the same work, post your source.

Of course, it's no one's business what an employer pays someone except for the employer and the employee.

[Alcon]

I know women get paid a lot less, the reason being that they do a lot less work.

As for them getting paid less for the same work, post your source.

Of course, it's no one's business what an employer pays someone except for the employer and the employee.

If it is inspired by racism or sexism, that is untrue.

And that women make less for men for the same work is pretty widely known.

[John Dibble]

Men and women will never be treated completely the same - wanna know why? Because they ARE different.

Should they have equal rights under the law? Yes. But in many cases that means giving men a leg up - like in child custody cases and things like that.

Should they be paid the same as men? That depends. If a woman can do the work her male coworkers can do it as effectively they should. But there are definitely cases where they shouldn't - like in jobs that require physical strength. In general, they can't do very heavy physical labor as effectively as a man can. If a woman is the exception in such cases, she should be paid the same. People should be paid on their ability to do their jobs.

Treated the same in society? Not gonna happen. Once again it comes back to the differences that really are there. Men will always be the ones chasing women, and they generally don't have to chase us. Heck, women have power over men that they either underestimate or just won't mention(and then say they are helpless).

[A18]

I know women get paid a lot less, the reason being that they do a lot less work.

As for them getting paid less for the same work, post your source.

Of course, it's no one's business what an employer pays someone except for the employer and the employee.

If it is inspired by racism or sexism, that is untrue.

And that women make less for men for the same work is pretty widely known.

No, it isn't. That's no one's business but theirs.

The only statistic I've heard is how much the average man makes versus how much the average woman makes.

[Nation]

It takes more than a few decades to achieve equality after centuries of inequality --- but we're making good progress. Some of the feminist movement is too radical for me, but I agree with it on the whole.