Are "Americans" that stupid in foreign policy or is it just "politics"?

[LastVoter]

Toughness on Cuba is asinine.

The people of Cuba are not free. It is important to put pressure on Cuba to adopt free markets and democratic institutions.

Cuba will take care of itself.

I have my suspicion that the hard line on Cuba has something to do with the Kennedy assassination, a connection for which Fidel Castro will never be forgiven.

Conspiracy theory up in dis bitch?

[pbrower2a]

Toughness on Cuba is asinine.

The people of Cuba are not free. It is important to put pressure on Cuba to adopt free markets and democratic institutions.

Cuba will take care of itself.

I have my suspicion that the hard line on Cuba has something to do with the Kennedy assassination, a connection for which Fidel Castro will never be forgiven.

Conspiracy theory up in dis bitch?

The Warren Commission report has sections that will long be kept secret. Castro has done some nasty stuff since 1963, like giving blatant support for anti-American 'liberation' causes in Africa and Latin America. His regime has been on the execration list for a very long time with every President. There must be a reason. The US has warmed up to China and Vietnam; the United States has never had direct conflict with Castro's Cuba, and Castro has never been as rhetorically hostile to the US as North Korean leadership at its least hostile. So there must be more to the enmity between the United States and the Castro dictatorship.

Lee Harvey Oswald did have his "Fair Play for Cuba" in New Orleans. Sure, Oswald had one of the murkiest minds that anyone ever had, and it is possible to see him going after President Kennedy for motivations of either the extreme Left or the extreme Right. Many disgruntled ex-Communists end up on the Extreme Right, and the anti-Kennedy rhetoric in Dallas was Extreme Right. Much unlike most conspiracy theorists I am satisfied that Lee Harvey Oswald fired the shot from the Texas State School Book Depository Building.

We're not going to know anything about this -- if there is anything -- until Fidel and Raul Castro are off the Cuban scene or until the Report of the Warren Commission is fully released.  Just wait. That's all that we can do.

[Link]

Toughness on Cuba is asinine.

The people of Cuba are not free. It is important to put pressure on Cuba to adopt free markets and democratic institutions curry favor with the far right wing Cuban extremists in the swing state of Florida.

fixed.

These "right-wing Cuban extremists in Florida" you speak of are simply freedom-loving people who wish we had committed to overthrowing Castro in 1961 rather than not coming through on our promises with regards to the Bay of Pigs. We should have given full aerial support to those freedom fighters. By doing so, we could have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis altogether the following year. It is a shame there is a nation of people less than 100 miles off the coast of the United States who have been severely oppressed for over half a century.

Your cup flloweth over my friend.

[Politico]

Toughness on Cuba is asinine.

The people of Cuba are not free. It is important to put pressure on Cuba to adopt free markets and democratic institutions curry favor with the far right wing Cuban extremists in the swing state of Florida.

fixed.

These "right-wing Cuban extremists in Florida" you speak of are simply freedom-loving people who wish we had committed to overthrowing Castro in 1961 rather than not coming through on our promises with regards to the Bay of Pigs. We should have given full aerial support to those freedom fighters. By doing so, we could have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis altogether the following year. It is a shame there is a nation of people less than 100 miles off the coast of the United States who have been severely oppressed for over half a century.

Your cup flloweth over my friend.

You think it's amusing that there is a nation of people less than 100 miles off the coast of the United States who have been severely oppressed for over half a century? Literally thousands of people have been executed by the Castro regime. The people of Cuba are told what to do in every aspect of their life, and face the harshest of penalties if they fail to comply. It is even worse than North Korea when you consider the facade Cuba puts on for the world.

[Link]

These "right-wing Cuban extremists in Florida" you speak of are simply freedom-loving people who wish we had committed to overthrowing Castro in 1961 rather than not coming through on our promises with regards to the Bay of Pigs. We should have given full aerial support to those freedom fighters. By doing so, we could have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis altogether the following year. It is a shame there is a nation of people less than 100 miles off the coast of the United States who have been severely oppressed for over half a century.

Your cup flloweth over my friend.

You think it's amusing that there is a nation of people less than 100 miles off the coast of the United States who have been severely oppressed for over half a century?

Whoa.

You need to chill dude.  You really think Cuba is the only country run by a dictator?  Do you ever take a break from watching Fox News and listening to Rush Limbaugh or where ever you get these notions and ask yourself how come we aren't embargoing every two bit dictator on the planet?  Do you every wonder why Cuba is one of only a few countries we effectively have a travel ban on?  Do you ever think about that?

This absolute attitude you have is mindless.  Questioning our very selective treatment of Cuba is not an automatic endorsement of Castro.  I just wonder how come we don't treat him the same way we treat just about every other two bit dictator on the planet.  You have to think for yourself Politico and question the system when things don't make sense.


As good or bad as Castro is if the Cuban population in this country was smaller and was located mostly in Alabama, Mississippi, Vermont, or Massachusetts (non swing states) there would be no travel ban or full embargo.  Not a chance.  Now why is that?  Ever wonder?

It is even worse than North Korea when you consider the facade Cuba puts on for the world.

Put the crack pipe down dude.  I would rather have the health care in Cuba than the health care in North Korea.  Frankly if I was poor in America I would rather have the health care in Cuba.  Cuba's health care system gets results that put it's democratic peers to shame.  Heck they punch way above their class and give the US or A a run for our money.  If you want to convince anyone your position is right you should refrain from obviously incorrect hyperbole.  You should also refrain from just repeating Castro is a dictator over and over again.  We all know he is an dicatator.  We just want to know why we give F-16s and millions of dollars to one opressive murdering dictator in one country and embargo a dictator in another.

Think, dude.

[Хahar 🤔]

Cuba is not in any way worse than North Korea. It's ridiculous that you would even consider that.

[Politico]

I would say you're better off in Cuba than North Korea, but that is kind of like saying that you are better off drowning to death than you are freezing to death. Obviously being oppressed in the warm weather of Cuba would be preferable to being oppressed in dreary North Korea. At least you have a chance of swimming to South Florida, too. It would take a lot more luck to get into South Korea.

Let me rephrase my comment: Cuba is worse than North Korea in the sense that they have done a better job of spreading propaganda.

What the Cuban government wants you to see and what it does not want you to see are two different things. For example, with regards to healthcare there are plenty of videos/photographs like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

South Florida is full of hundreds of thousands of people who can attest to what Castro's Cuba is really all about.

Obviously I am opposed to all dictators, and would like to see free markets and democratic institutions in every nation on the planet. However, oil is a vital resource and not all dictators oppress their people quite as effectively as North Korea and Cuba. How they have managed to hold onto power for over half a century is beyond me.

[Link]

I would say you're better off in Cuba than North Korea, but that is kind of like saying that you are better off drowning to death than you are freezing to death.

What?!

There's that hyperbole again.

Let me rephrase my comment: Cuba is worse than North Korea in the sense that they have done a better job of spreading propaganda.

If by propaganda you mean independently verified objective data documenting the far better health and welfare of the population then yes, I agree with you.

Politico there are plenty of Green Card holders here in the United States that are barred from voting.  I know several who have been eligible for US citizenship for years and haven't bothered doing the paperwork and paying the money.  They have no political voice and it doesn't bother them.  What they are concerned about is food, shelter, education, and healthcare.  All things that are in some form available in Cuba and to varying degrees absent in North Korea.  You need to look up Maslow's hierarchy of needs...



If you stay out of politics in Cuba the first two most basic needs are met in Cuba.  They are not met in North Korea so I don't know how you can say the two countries are equivalent or indeed that North Korea is better.  No one is saying the shelter in Cuba=a McMansion in the US suburbs but it is better than the average North Korean hovel.

Obviously I am opposed to all dictators, and would like to see free markets and democratic institutions in every nation on the planet. However, oil is a vital resource and not all dictators oppress their people quite as effectively as North Korea and Cuba.

Only a fraction of the dictators we have supported throughout modern history have had oil.  I get the distinct feeling you came to a conclusion and are now just back filling your arguments.  Judging by your off the cuff critique of North Korea vs Cuba I doubt you have done any kind of thoughtful assessement of the various dictators we have supported in recent history.  It's interesting that you started this debate slamming me for allegedly saying Castro isn't that bad and now you are saying a myriad number dictators around the world weren't doing that much oppression.

[Politico]

After your little diatribe about health care, where you called for a death panel for Santorum's poor, innocent daughter, I am not even going to continue this conversation. You can live in your little fantasy land where people are politically oppressed but have plenty of octopus to feast on and won't freeze to death in Cuba, so Cuba is not so bad. After basically seeing you call for a death panel for Santorum's poor, innocent daughter, it does not surprise me that you are a left-wing apologist for Cuba and do not like the appropriate comparison to North Korea. Take away the more effective propaganda of Cuba, and Cuba and North Korea are essentially cut from the same cloth: oppressive, communist regimes with poor (and poorer) standards of living. The only reason Cuba is less poor is because of the warmer climate, which is hospitable to their primary exports (i.e., cigars and tourism). North Korea does not have a climate that is as hospitable to agriculture and tourism, or it would probably be about on par with Cuba (i.e., less poor but still poor).

[Link]

After your little diatribe against Santorum's poor, innocent daughter...

There's that hyperbole again.  I never went on a diatribe against Santorum's daughter.  I went on a diatribe about the absolute refusal by grown adults in this country to face up the the reality of our health care system.  I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

Your language is like a Gingrich debate performace.  I question why we have an embargo on Cuba but yet whole heartedly support other murderous dictators and you say I am a Castro supporter.  I question using very expensive artificial measures to prolong the life of a toddeler with in all likelyhood an iq too low to measure while we let other people prematurely die due to lack of basic health care, and you say it's a diatribe against Santorum's daughter.

[Politico]

After your little diatribe against Santorum's poor, innocent daughter...

There's that hyperbole again.  I never went on a diatribe against Santorum's daughter.

 I went on a diatribe about the absolute refusal by grown adults in this country to face up the the reality of our health care system.  I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

I phrased that poorly. Correction: "After your little diatribe about health care, where you called for a death panel for Santorum's poor, innocent daughter..."

Or did you mean something else when you said that you hope she DIES, and that people like her should DIE rather than the parents having the option of providing health care for their child?

Who do you think you are? Fidel Castro?

[tpfkaw]

I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

I hope she will be OK.

I don't.

...

[nhmagic]

Watching the GOP debates, especially concerning Santorum:


- They think that we are all the same just because we speak the same language.

- They forgot that Brazil is already a worldwide power (and they speak Portuguese)

- They don't understand the differences between european-like countries (Argentina and Uruguay)  or more-native countries like Bolivia  and Peru.

- They think that Colombia's conservative parties are grateful to USA for killing dozens of thousands of poor people because their stupid war on drugs

- They think that Venezuela is a dictatorship, when it's very plausible that the opposition would take control in the next elections.

This is about as stupid as the point you're trying to make about Americans (read republicans). Ive taken Latin America classes and understand thoroughly the differences between the countries.  

First, just because someone speaks the same language as me doesn't mean I think the Britts like American football, etc.  No individual is just like the other.  

Second, you dont understand that each of those european-countries actually do have a sizeable mixed population - I say mixed, because there are very few "natives" left after generations of interbreeding.  At the same time, those mixed populations are very different from the more european (whiter) citizens.  It causes great political turmoil sometimes.  The histories of many latin american countries are somewhat similar politically.  Brazil is a rather rare exception to the rule and it is why they are seeing such success - though I'd hardly say that Brazil is a "world power" as of yet.  There are very few influential things that you can point to and say ah Brazil, its a player now.

Re Colombia: There are both conservative and socialist narco terror organizations in Columbia and Colombia was thankful, but not for what you talk about.  They are happy that trade agreements were reached and that the US is a military ally against their enemy Venezuela.

Venezuela is a dictatorship.  Chavez rigs elections.  It was a sure bet that Chavez would lose in a previous election and he ended up miraculously winning.  The only reason you don't consider it a dictatorship is because you sympathize with his ideological views.  That would be like me saying how wonderful Pinochet was.

[Link]

I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

I hope she will be OK.

I don't.

...

If any member of my family had a low quality of life and was afflicted with what is almost invariably a lethal illness after a protracted and at times painful series of very expensive interventions I would elect to put them on comfort measures only and I certainly would not ask anyone be it the tax payer or other people in my private insurance pool to pick up the tab for a futile battle with death.

Americans talk a good game when they are sitting on a debate stage discussing bombing other people's children and relatives but they will spend millions of dollars of other people's money to prolong their own relatives lives well beyond anything that is natural or sane.

I am impressed when people face reality with dignity.  I respect my parents because although they have done nothing but work hard their whole lives they told me that once things get to a particular point not to intervene.  They are very brave.  No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

[Politico]

No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

Well, at least you are being honest by emphatically endorsing death panels. What else does El Presidente Castro propose for America?

[Insula Dei]

Watching the GOP debates, especially concerning Santorum:


- They think that we are all the same just because we speak the same language.

- They forgot that Brazil is already a worldwide power (and they speak Portuguese)

- They don't understand the differences between european-like countries (Argentina and Uruguay)  or more-native countries like Bolivia  and Peru.

- They think that Colombia's conservative parties are grateful to USA for killing dozens of thousands of poor people because their stupid war on drugs

- They think that Venezuela is a dictatorship, when it's very plausible that the opposition would take control in the next elections.

This is about as stupid as the point you're trying to make about Americans (read republicans). Ive taken Latin America classes and understand thoroughly the differences between the countries.  

First, just because someone speaks the same language as me doesn't mean I think the Britts like American football, etc.  No individual is just like the other.  

Second, you dont understand that each of those european-countries actually do have a sizeable mixed population - I say mixed, because there are very few "natives" left after generations of interbreeding.  At the same time, those mixed populations are very different from the more european (whiter) citizens.  It causes great political turmoil sometimes.  The histories of many latin american countries are somewhat similar politically.  Brazil is a rather rare exception to the rule and it is why they are seeing such success - though I'd hardly say that Brazil is a "world power" as of yet.  There are very few influential things that you can point to and say ah Brazil, its a player now.

Re Colombia: There are both conservative and socialist narco terror organizations in Columbia and Colombia was thankful, but not for what you talk about.  They are happy that trade agreements were reached and that the US is a military ally against their enemy Venezuela.

Venezuela is a dictatorship.  Chavez rigs elections.  It was a sure bet that Chavez would lose in a previous election and he ended up miraculously winning.  The only reason you don't consider it a dictatorship is because you sympathize with his ideological views.  That would be like me saying how wonderful Pinochet was.

You do realize that Peeperkorn is a right-wing Uruguayan, eh?

[Oakvale]

No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

Well, at least you are being honest by emphatically endorsing death panels. What else does El Presidente Castro propose for America?

Can we have a definition of "death panels"?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

Well, at least you are being honest by emphatically endorsing death panels. What else does El Presidente Castro propose for America?

Can we have a definition of "death panels"?

Preferably one that includes the de facto 'death panels' that already exist in this country and aren't somehow less 'death panel-y' for being run by the omniscient and omnibenevolent private sector?

[Link]

After your little diatribe against Santorum's poor, innocent daughter...

There's that hyperbole again.  I never went on a diatribe against Santorum's daughter.

 I went on a diatribe about the absolute refusal by grown adults in this country to face up the the reality of our health care system.  I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

I phrased that poorly. Correction: "After your little diatribe about health care, where you called for a death panel for Santorum's poor, innocent daughter..."

Or did you mean something else when you said that you hope she DIES, and that people like her should DIE rather than the parents having the option of providing health care for their child?

Who do you think you are? Fidel Castro?

Ahhh... hitting all the talking points I see.  I did not say there should be a "death panel" as you put it.  I had actually expressed the hope that Americans would of their own free will and volition face death with some kind of dignity instead of burdening the tax payer and/or the private insurer every time you can't deal with reality.  Resources aren't infinite.  Pouring every penny into Santorum's daughter's care means numerous other kids are going without or having substandard care.  Mind you this type of thing doesn't happen in Cuba.  It's kind of ironic that you decided to bring that up in this thread.  If you bothered to objectively study Cuba instead of spouting talking points you would realize that there are some interesting things going on down there.  The real irony is the set of policies I advocate would result in a lot more healthy adults than the policies you and Santorum advocate.  Now who is advocating "death panels?"

Or did you mean something else when you said that you hope she DIES, and that people like her should DIE rather than the parents having the option of providing health care for their child?

Who do you think you are? Fidel Castro?

I think I am an educated adult that has seen more death in my life in first world and third world countries than you every will.  And I would never advocate a course of action for Santorum's daughter that I would not advocate for my own.  You need to get a clinical or research job in a hospital that deals with tough cases.  If you are around long enough you will definitely hear people who have saved a heck of a lot more lives than you ever will privately express that a parent or child should, at a certain point, let their relative go.  I'm sorry to intrude on your fantasy.

[Politico]

No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

Well, at least you are being honest by emphatically endorsing death panels. What else does El Presidente Castro propose for America?

Can we have a definition of "death panels"?

To give a specific example, having people like Link deciding when the plug is to be pulled on Santorum's poor, innocent daughter rather than leaving it up to the Santorums. You get the idea, right?

[Politico]

After your little diatribe against Santorum's poor, innocent daughter...

There's that hyperbole again.  I never went on a diatribe against Santorum's daughter.

 I went on a diatribe about the absolute refusal by grown adults in this country to face up the the reality of our health care system.  I would not suggest Santorum treat his daughter any differently than I would treat my own daughter.

I phrased that poorly. Correction: "After your little diatribe about health care, where you called for a death panel for Santorum's poor, innocent daughter..."

Or did you mean something else when you said that you hope she DIES, and that people like her should DIE rather than the parents having the option of providing health care for their child?

Who do you think you are? Fidel Castro?

Ahhh... hitting all the talking points I see.  I did not say there should be a "death panel" as you put it.  I had actually expressed the hope that Americans would of their own free will and volition face death with some kind of dignity instead of burdening the tax payer and/or the private insurer every time you can't deal with reality.  Resources aren't infinite.  Pouring every penny into Santorum's daughter's care means numerous other kids are going without or having substandard care.  Mind you this type of thing doesn't happen in Cuba.  It's kind of ironic that you decided to bring that up in this thread.  If you bothered to objectively study Cuba instead of spouting talking points you would realize that there are some interesting things going on down there.  The real irony is the set of policies I advocate would result in a lot more healthy adults than the policies you and Santorum advocate.  Now who is advocating "death panels?"

You want to know how it really works in Castro's Cuba? Like any other communist nation: The members of the Communist Party get something, although still not as much as you can get in a free and prosperous nation, and the non-members get poverty and misery with the threat of being made to "disappear" if they have a problem with it.

If you think you, or anybody, can organize society for us, let alone control an industry as large as healthcare, you really do belong in Cuba. There are no angels out there who are going to organize society and bring about utopia.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I believe in allowing the Santorums to be free to choose how to handle the healthcare of their daughter. That is for them and their doctor to deal with as they see fit. It is really none of your god damn business, or the government's for that matter. You need to stop thinking that you know what is best for everybody else. You do not. What works for you may not work for others. Issues of life and liberty are always, whenever feasible, best left in the hands of free individuals to make their own decisions.

[Oakvale]

How would you suggest healthcare should be rationed, Politico? I'm not being facetious, I actually am curious to know. Since this is fundamentally (if you'll pardon the Gingrichism!) an ethical discussion.

[courts]

How would you suggest healthcare should be rationed, Politico? I'm not being facetious, I actually am curious to know. Since this is fundamentally (if you'll pardon the Gingrichism!) an ethical discussion.

Ability to pay was sort of implied there.

[Politico]

How would you suggest healthcare should be rationed, Politico? I'm not being facetious, I actually am curious to know. Since this is fundamentally (if you'll pardon the Gingrichism!) an ethical discussion.

I am optimistic that market-driven technology will save the day sooner or later. For example, I heard the other day about a technology that will scan your body for infectious diseases, any type of cancer, heart disease, etc., and read out the results in less than fifteen minutes. Completely non-intrusive. The potential is enormous. This technology could significantly lower costs for screening more frequently (getting rid of so much overhead and unnecessary time spent examining patients), not to mention less costly treatments down the road because people will catch the diseases/cancer earlier when it is less costly to eliminate the problem if possible.

I am optimistic that brilliant scientists and entrepreneurs will ultimately solve the challenges via technological advancement.

[Link]

No one is saying pulling plug is easy or a joyous occasion but you are not going to solve the healthcare problem if you can't say enough is enough.

Well, at least you are being honest by emphatically endorsing death panels. What else does El Presidente Castro propose for America?

Can we have a definition of "death panels"?

To give a specific example, having people like Link deciding when the plug is to be pulled on Santorum's poor, innocent daughter rather than leaving it up to the Santorums. You get the idea, right?

All right Politico let's clear this up right now.  I have never advocated pulling the plug on a patient over the objections of a patients family.  If I said that in a post please quote it here and I will go back and change it.

What I would advocate is that if someone wants to prolong the life of a patient with a poor quality of life with expensive extraordingary interventions that they use their own money and not public funds or private insurance pools.  I would actaully leave that up to each insurer.  I of course would expect an opinion from multiple doctors confirming that things have gone beyond what is reasonable.    If someone wants to spend money out of pocket they should be able to do whatever they want as long as it's not child abuse.

To be honest I don't know what the up to date prognosis is of Santorum's daughter and I don't know the nature of the intervations taking place.  If she's in a step down unit on some IV antibiotics and breathing treatments that seems pretty reasonable.

In this country we have defacto death panels.  Health care is rationed.  It's just done in a hapharzard way that primarily impacts the working poor.  Decisions are made, laws are passed and insurance policies are written in such a way that put's basic healthcare out of the reach of millions and as a result people die.  It makes no sense to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep an ancephalic child alive with funds that you deny from other children and let them die.  If that makes me a Castro loving commie b@st@rd then I guess that's what I am.