Israel general discussion

[Hnv1]

The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.

I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

Better for whom?

For Israelis

Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Better for whom?

For Israelis

How is segregation better for anyone

[Hnv1]

Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

[America Needs R'hllor]

The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.

I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

Better for whom?

For Israelis

Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.

Exactly. I know thinking that nationaliat feather puffing will make life better for Israelis might be compelling when you live in Europe, but what really will make our life better is striving for peace and using the continued economic growth to raise wages (rather than destroying the economy to show these libruls what's what).

Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

Interesting, is that the flow of voters from each party? Because lol Meretz -> Likud.

[Hnv1]

The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.

I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

Better for whom?

For Israelis

Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.

Exactly. I know thinking that nationaliat feather puffing will make life better for Israelis might be compelling when you live in Europe, but what really will make our life better is striving for peace and using the continued economic growth to raise wages (rather than destroying the economy to show these libruls what's what).

Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

Interesting, is that the flow of voters from each party? Because lol Meretz -> Likud.

I actually know quite a lot who moved from the left to Sharon in 2003 and never looked back. The left really needs to internalize the fact that the second intifada is biggest drive from most Israelis when they go out to vote. The damage Barak did could probably never be mended

[SATW]

As an American Jew, I like when people who aren't in the community speak for me and millions of other Jews   .

I'm tired of hearing about how I, a conservative zionist,  "enable" left-wing anti-Israel Jews because I won't crap all over my community. (This isn't necessarily something posters here have said, but something I hear on a consistent basis IRL and on social media) I actively was involved in efforts to oppose Anti-Israel and antisemitic behaviors on college campuses. Whether it came from Islamic radicals, or left-wing Jewish radicals or edgy white liberals.

So, no, I don't think me defending the US Jewish Community is enabling anything. The reality is that people like DavidB (someone I deeply respect and admire as a friend on and off atlas) need to understand is that things are complicated.

Yes, American Jews are spoiled compared to the hardships Israeli Jews and Jews in danger zones (Europe, S. Africa etc...) face every day.

Yes, American Jews are falling behind on educating the youth. We are losing people to the false prophets of Anti-Zionism and "human rights advocacy."

Yes, Reform and Conservative Judaism in the US have damaged themselves (possibly permanently) by watering down our religion and customs and allowing (and even encouraging) intermarriage and over-secularization.

BUT..... That being said:

It is also true that American Jews provide millions of dollars in strong support for Israel, the IDF, Settlers and cultural/economic/religious institutions in the homeland. This is a super diverse group of people. Stop trying to paint us all with one brush.

It is also true that liberal organizations such as the ADL, the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress staunchly support Israel's actions in foreign policy/national security. Even when it is hard to do so. Occasional lapses of judgement is not the end of the world. No one is f**king perfect.

Organizations like AIPAC, StandWithUs, ZOA, the Israel Project etc... are all American-run and almost entirely filled with American Jewish activists and organizers. The crazy comparison that some people on the right and left make of AIPAC to J-Street is shocking.

Thousands of young American Jews, myself included, gave up our aspirations in other aspects of politics to try and hold the line and defend Israel and her policies while we were in college. This includes many liberals and Reform Jews (sorry to burst the far-right's delusions).

DavidB, it is very false and counterproductive to claim only a fringe number of Jews care about certain issues. Many American Jews who are reform and conservative wonder why Israel, apparently, ignores some of their requests on religious and cultural issues.

I oppose Women of the Wall and I oppose weakening conversion guidelines. But, I also oppose the deliberate effort of the Haredi parties and some far-right activists who take glee in spitting in the face of the diaspora.

Where were these clowns in 1948 when Rabbi Wise and Rabbi Silver (both Reform) were organizing support for Zionism in America?  most ultra-orthodox OPPOSED Zionism and the re-establishment of Israel until after the Six-Day War. Chabad was one of the first hasidic groups to embrace Israel, even while sidestepping its secular elements (understandably). Most, however, only put their hands in the cookie jar when they realized they could get something out of it.

There has to be a middle ground. I don't know it is, but we cannot afford to lose the Diaspora. Natan Sharansky's plan may or may not have been a mistake but it was a good step in the conservation with Diaspora Jews.

Many of my fellow Likudniks agree: https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Poll-Likud-voters-favor-recognition-of-Reform-Conservative-groups-562071

The worst part isn't the inaction on these issues, but the tolerance by the coalition of crazy comments from haredi leaders:

1. https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Earthquake-caused-by-Reform-Conservative-Jews-says-Shas-MK-561646

2. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-adl-head-ultra-orthodox-using-hate-speech-against-reform-jews-1.5422609



But, also, like I always say, it is never one side to blame. Reform and Conservative Jewish leaders need to wake up and realize that their congregations are getting used as political organizations and that they have sold themselves out for the false comfort of diaspora acceptance:

1. http://www.thetower.org/article/reform-and-conservative-judaism-have-failed-in-israel-and-its-their-own-fault/

2. https://www.timesofisrael.com/an-author-predicts-an-end-to-diaspora-jewry-thanks-to-tikkun-olam-progressivism/

3. https://nypost.com/2018/06/23/liberal-jews-are-destroying-their-own-religion/

[America Needs R'hllor]

This is an awesome post, Sunrise. I find it admirable that you defend your fellow zionists from the left and don't go along with the line of many on the modern right who wish to take zionism to themselves and proclaim leftists as post-zionists. I also strongly agree with your views on the Haredi party- I think it's really telling that the opposition to their outrageous actions is so widespread, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of Israelis view them with distatste. If they think they can keep doing what they want and saying what they want in such an environment, their bubble is bound to burst at some point. And people like you (or like Chuck Schumer from the other side) make me dearly hope that the Jewish-American community can recover from its decline and maintain itself as a proud and strong force in the U.S., supporting Israel (which will hopefully start showing gratitude) despite having a majority of reform and conservative liberals, living and marching alongside orthodox Jews, even the staunch right-wingers like yourself.. It's beautiful imo.

I obviously disagree with you on a few issues- I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall. Especially the latter- there's really no reason to let the Haredim own the Western Wall, it belongs to all Jews. In any case, before they owned it there was no sex-based segregation there and it did fine. But well, I'm generally quite radical on the issue of the Rabanut.

[SATW]

This is an awesome post, Sunrise. I find it admirable that you defend your fellow zionists from the left and don't go along with the line of many on the modern right who wish to take zionism to themselves and proclaim leftists as post-zionists. I also strongly agree with your views on the Haredi party- I think it's really telling that the opposition to their outrageous actions is so widespread, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of Israelis view them with distatste. If they think they can keep doing what they want and saying what they want in such an environment, their bubble is bound to burst at some point. And people like you (or like Chuck Schumer from the other side) make me dearly hope that the Jewish-American community can recover from its decline and maintain itself as a proud and strong force in the U.S., supporting Israel (which will hopefully start showing gratitude) despite having a majority of reform and conservative liberals, living and marching alongside orthodox Jews, even the staunch right-wingers like yourself.. It's beautiful imo.

I obviously disagree with you on a few issues- I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall. Especially the latter- there's really no reason to let the Haredim own the Western Wall, it belongs to all Jews. In any case, before they owned it there was no sex-based segregation there and it did fine. But well, I'm generally quite radical on the issue of the Rabanut.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think for me, as both an American and Israeli citizen, I have figuratively been feeling like the ground has been falling out from under the US-Israel Relationship's intrinsic fabric. I remember reading in Michael Oren's book that the most glaring example of the awkward underbelly of the US-Israel Jewish relationship was when he experienced his daughter's marriage not being recognized due to her being Reform. (for those non-Jewish posters who don't know, Oren was Israel's Ambassador to America from 2009-2013, so ridiculous that his daughter's marriage was not seen as real while he was serving Israel as a diplomat).

Oren was for a long time seen as the quintessential child of US-Israel Relations due to his upbringing as an American Jew and his career as an Israeli Jew. Young American Jews who went to college from 2009-2013 were able to connect to him on so many personal levels. Ron Dermer is also an American-Israeli and an Israeli-American, but his story is not ringing true to Americans in the same way that Oren's did. This type of romanticism seems to be dying and it is problematic.

Storytelling and fond personal experience is what keeps all relationships strong. Today's generation of American Jews don't have that. Most have never even been to Israel. How can they be expected to unflinchingly defend Israel if 1) they don't feel represented and 2) if they have no personal aura connecting them to Israel?

Birthright does amazing work, for example, in building that personal connection, but not all Jews go on Birthright.  Not because they don't want to go but because timing or personal situations don't work out.

I think all sides of the religious divide need to realize that we all contribute to this decline. The worst part is that there is no real place for a conversation. Reform/Conservative Jews get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views and Orthodox/Haredi Jews also get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views.

On the broader Diaspora-Israel Relationship, I think the biggest factor is that for so many decades American Jews were used to both parties having some sort of Pro-Israel wing. Dems were more Pro-Israel from 1948-1970s and the GOP has been more Pro-Israel since 1980s but even after that switch there was always a strong Pro-Israel faction  in both parties. Until Barack Obama won in 2008. I don't want to place all blame on him but his policy shellshocked a lot of Pro-Israel Americans.

Until 2011-2012, Israel was never a top priority issue for me, for example. I always expected both parties to be Pro-Israel. Not in a blind way, but in a sympathetic way. Even in 2008 none of my criticisms of Obama or the Dems were Israel-related.

Democrat Jews responded it to it in two ways: 1) Criticizing Obama on Israel but still voting democrat (which is a fair position to take) 2) Selling out Israel and conforming to Anti-Israel bashing on the far-left.

The Jewish Right, instead of just trying to defeat the anti-Israel Jews and anti-Israel progressives, decided to torpedo the whole DNC with attacks. Similarly, Jewish Democrats decided to label all of the GOP as crazy evangelicals  (and now claiming most Repubs are "alt-right") without also pointing out that there are many good Pro-Jewish and Pro-Israel Republicans. This has led to the politicization of Israel.

On the conversion question, I am also a son of Post-USSR/FSU Jews and I definitely understand the anxiety and frustration with the Rabbinate. I support reforming how the Rabbinate functions, but my fears on conversion and how intermarriage is viewed is directly related to the failures of Reform and Conservative Judaism.

Both Reform and Conservative Jews are intermarrying themselves out of existence. A huge majority of Jews in America intermarry and their kids do not identify as Jewish. So my hardline on intermarriage and conversion is out of an existential view. If that makes sense.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

This map shocked Obama.



https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

[America Needs R'hllor]

This map shocked Obama.



https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

This map is misleading, though. There are only a few actually big blocks of settlements which can no longer be dismantled, the rest are scattered and small. There are a lot of empty areas too. But, I'm also worried that the settlements will keep expanding and derail a two-state solution, and thus a liveable Jewish country.

Re: Sunrise- I'll read and reply tomorrow

[OSR stands with Israel]

One reason Im skeptical of a two-state solution involving Jerusalem is because of the situation between India and Pakistan involving Kashmir.

Radical Islamic terrorists wont stop attacking India and Israel until both nations are totally are destroyed and that is why they must not be appeased.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

One reason Im skeptical of a two-state solution involving Jerusalem is because of the situation between India and Pakistan involving Kashmir.

Radical Islamic terrorists wont stop attacking India and Israel until both nations are totally are destroyed and that is why they must not be appeased.

Kashmir itself was decisively Muslim at partition. Had Jammu and Kashmir been plebiscited instead of being a nominally independent princely state, Kashmir would've gone to Pakistan with Jammu and Ladakh (save perhaps northern Kargil) to India. Unfortunately, it wasn't which contributed to the fighting and for obvious reasons no post-independence referendum was held.

[DavidB.]

Good post by Sunrise. It is certainly true that there are a number of great Zionist organizations in America and thousands and thousands of Jewish students who are doing absolutely great work. That said, I still think the "diaspora card" is pulled by the Israeli and American Jewish left when it comes to religion-state issues: most of the diaspora doesn't care. And since diaspora Jews, particularly in the U.S., are simply much less likely to meaningfully adhere to Jewish traditions (we all know the poll where a plurality of American Jews think their Judaism revolves around "humor"), I think it is diaspora Jews who need to change, not Israel. Of course, these are generalizations. There are millions of American Jews: most of them are sympathetic to Israel and many of them are doing important work for Israel. But we have to be honest here. The exact same goes for me. I am much less observant than I should be, yet have done Israel advocacy and continue to stand up for Israel in the political organizations in which I am active. But it would be unreasonable for me to expect Israel to cater to my views and adjust its domestic policies solely because of me or people like me: foreigners.

I don't respond to people on my ignore list (i.e. Horus and Ernest).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't respond to people on my ignore list (i.e. Horus and Ernest).

Yes you are quite irresponsive to those who don't share your views, but even if you weren't choosing to live in an echo chamber, I don't think I posted anything since your last post that would have generated a reply by you.

[Velasco]

"Israel in turmoil over a bill allowing Jews and Arabs to be segregated"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/israel-turmoil-bill-allowing-jews-arabs-segregated

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I find the last two paragraphs particularly disturbing. It sounds like the Israeli government is paving the way for a theocratic state. Netanyahu argues the following:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is misguided, to say the least. In democracy the majority governs, but the safeguard of minorities rights is sacred. Under no circumstance the rights of the majority are an excuse to discriminate the minorities in a democratic state. This is a key part of a democracy and the legislation the Israeli government wants to pass is openly discriminatory.

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[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

This map shocked Obama.



https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

This map is misleading, though. There are only a few actually big blocks of settlements which can no longer be dismantled, the rest are scattered and small. There are a lot of empty areas too. But, I'm also worried that the settlements will keep expanding and derail a two-state solution, and thus a liveable Jewish country.

It does make obvious that pretty much in every instance, if there is a choice between inconveniencing the settlers and making life miserable for the Palestinians, the Israel occupation has chosen the latter rather than former.  Israel has chosen to divide the Palestinian areas into hundreds of isolated ghettos, apparently just so that the settlers can go directly from settlement A to settlement B rather than having to take a longer route.

[Torie]

I am interested as to why David is so confident that just "blowing off" the Jewish Diaspora will not result in less support for Israel from that group and why that does not present potentially serious problems down the line for Israel. And I assume that when he says that the diaspora "needs to change," he really doesn't think that they will change in the direction that he prefers. One thing I think the diaspora does help do in the US, is slow down the migration of the political left towards being hostile to Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state, and protecting that state to the extent needed from destruction.  

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?

I assume that I am not on David's "ignore" list - at least not yet.

[DavidB.]

In the postmodernist hellscape the Western left seeks to create, minorities first receive more rights than the majority and subsequently become the majority themselves. When this happens, all protections of minority rights will obviously go overboard, because the new majority won't care about legal protection and rights for the "privileged" minority.

And so what we need in the West as well as in Israel is more protections for the majority -- so that they can remain the majority and these countries can remain well-functioning countries.

Freedom of association is an important right. Certain Israeli settlements already require vetting before one can move there. One cannot just move to Beitar Illit: one has to adhere to a similar lifestyle, i.e. be Haredi. This reduces tensions, and I support it. Similarly, Arabs and LGBT people can theoretically establish their own new communities. However, I do not think this should be allowed in cities. In the proposal introduced by the government, the state does not discriminate. Citizens themselves can establish communities and decide, in a democratic way, whom to allow in and whom not to allow in. This is a good thing.

The Israeli New Left is not interested in democracy at all; on the contrary, it continues to undermine it. It knows that it has lost the majority of Israelis after inflicting misery on the population, and it knows that it cannot win another election. So it now focuses on minorities, minorities, minorities, it uses foreign-funded NGOs to sabotage the will of the majority, and it engages in legal warfare through the Supreme Court. I am critical of Likud's economic policies, but I recognize they do one thing very well: at least they are there for the majority of Israelis. Indeed, they are possibly the only party that does not just claim to stand for one segment of society: the last true catch-all party in Israel. No wonder Netanyahu keeps winning elections.

[DavidB.]

I am interested as to why David is so confident that just "blowing off" the Jewish Diaspora will not result in less support for Israel from that group and why that does not present potentially serious problems down the line for Israel.

I'm not necessarily saying Israel's policies will not affect support for Israel in the diaspora. I am saying that people who support Israel less over its policies are the ones at fault, not Israel. I don't necessarily think the role of American Jews in securing support for Israel is all that important, and I certainly think American Jews overestimate it.

And I assume that when he says that the diaspora "needs to change," he really doesn't think that they will change in the direction that he prefers. One thing I think the diaspora does help do in the US, is slow down the migration of the political left towards being hostile to Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state, and protecting that state to the extent needed from destruction.

I'm skeptical about this. It is happening unabatedly. Some Jews make admirable efforts to slow down the trend within the Democratic Party and I fully support them, but their work doesn't appear to be all that effective and I think it is going to be futile in the long run; meanwhile, other Jews actually lead the anti-Israeli camp and appear to become more radical by the day.

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?

Yes, I think Israel will survive even if the U.S. decides to retract it veto with regard to anti-Israel motions on the UN Security Council. Which isn't too unlikely in the near future -- Israel continuing to improve its ties with Russia, another country with a veto in the UN Security Council, is therefore a very good development. I also think Israel can do without U.S. financial aid, though this would obviously pose financial problems in the short run.

The question not posed, however, is to what extent American Jewry affects the U.S. government's attitude towards Israel. I am utterly unconvinced that it plays a significant role. Which is good: in my view, America currently supports Israel because it's in America's strategic interests. That's the way it should be.

Of course, the problem of American left-wing Jews seeking to exercise influence over Israeli domestic policies is a temporary problem anyway. Given birth rates and intermarriage rates, American Jewry will be significantly more orthodox in 50 years. Secular left-wing American Jews are a dying breed. What is the difference between Donald Trump and the average Reform Jew? Trump has Jewish grandchildren, and the average Reform Jew won't.

I assume that I am not on David's "ignore" list - at least not yet.

Our interactions have always been enjoyable. Disagreement is no problem. Disrespect is.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think we shouldn't treat Israel with double standards, but that counts both ways: if the Netherlands started creating Dutch only towns that Turks or Jews couldn't live in or if they started imposing loyalty tests on academics we would have no problem saying that woild be, at the very least, extremely authoritarian, and possibly fascistic.

The question not posed, however, is to what extent American Jewry affects the U.S. government's attitude towards Israel. I am utterly unconvinced that it plays a significant role. Which is good: in my view, America currently supports Israel because it's in America's strategic interests. That's the way it should be.

I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.

I also do think the diaspora is more helpful than you think. Look at the UK - the diaspora (rightly) have made the issue of anti-zionism a big deal, and partially wounded Corbynism as a result. If the Zionist state divorces itself from the diaspora, why would they bother to stand up against claims that Israel is an apartheid state? Israel would no longer be a state intended to represent all Jews, and would just be a country where a lot of Jews happen to live.

[DavidB.]

I think we shouldn't treat Israel with double standards, but that counts both ways: if the Netherlands started creating Dutch only towns that Turks or Jews couldn't live in or if they started imposing loyalty tests on academics we would have no problem saying that woild be, at the very least, extremely authoritarian, and possibly fascistic.

I don't know who "we" is. If the proposal were similar to the Israeli proposal, I wouldn't be opposed to it either. No double standard there. Wouldn't want to live in a community that would not accept me as a member anyway, to put it somewhat differently than Groucho Marx would. But I really don't think it would be remotely likely that Jews would be banned from any places.

I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.

Let's leave the (legitimate and potentially interesting) discussion about whether Israel is an asset or a liability to the U.S. aside for now: to me, the Iran deal was the ultimate litmus test whether Democrats were interested in Jewish views. They weren't.

I also do think the diaspora is more helpful than you think. Look at the UK - the diaspora (rightly) have made the issue of anti-zionism a big deal, and partially wounded Corbynism as a result. If the Zionist state divorces itself from the diaspora, why would they bother to stand up against claims that Israel is an apartheid state? Israel would no longer be a state intended to represent all Jews, and would just be a country where a lot of Jews happen to live.

True, the UK is a different case. But in the U.S., the Democratic Party seems lost.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.

Let's leave the (legitimate and potentially interesting) discussion about whether Israel is an asset or a liability aside for now: to me the Iran deal was the ultimate litmus test whether Democrats were interested in Jewish views. They weren't.

You have an "interesting" definition of "interested". It apparently means "accepting uncritically" to you.

Sanctions have generally proven unable to affect changes in policy, especially amongst authoritarian regimes, so there's no point in including that possibility in any calculus of whether they are a desirable policy. The only real question is whether sanctions or engagement are the best means of keeping Iran from developing and then potentially employing a nuclear capability. That's something that is debatable.

(You also believe "Jewish"="Zionist", which is both something you made clear long ago and isn't all that interesting.)

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?

Yes, I think Israel will survive even if the U.S. decides to retract it veto with regard to anti-Israel motions on the UN Security Council. Which isn't too unlikely in the near future -- Israel continuing to improve its ties with Russia, another country with a veto in the UN Security Council, is therefore a very good development. I also think Israel can do without U.S. financial aid, though this would obviously be a financial issue in the short run.

Considering the support Russia also extends to Syria and Iran, I do wonder why you think Russia would choose to prioritize Israeli-relations over its existing ones when they come into conflict.  It may be that Russia will be able to act as a neutral broker now that the U.S. has abandoned that role, but it doesn't really require a powerful country to act as a neutral broker, and such a broker will only be useful when both sides think a deal is both possible and desirable, and right now neither seems to think that.

[dead0man]

Considering the support Russia also extends to Syria and Iran, I do wonder why you think Russia would choose to prioritize Israeli-relations over its existing ones when they come into conflict.

I suspect if Russia thought Israel would seriously move away from the US and towards them that they/Putin would jump at the chance and leave sh**tty allies like Assad and the Mullahs as quickly as they/he could.

A.they'd finally, after half a century, have competent allies in the middle east
2.they'd get to look at some US/western tech
III.they'd get the advantage of having first dibs on future Israeli tech.  A lot more science comes out of Tel Aviv than it does Damascus and Tehran combined.


Of course Israel ain't going anywhere unless the US starts electing anti-Semites, and the way a lot of young people feel here, that's not impossible over the next couple of decades.




also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?

[EPG]

Freedom of association is an important right. Certain Israeli settlements already require vetting before one can move there. One cannot just move to Beitar Illit: one has to adhere to a similar lifestyle, i.e. be Haredi. This reduces tensions, and I support it. Similarly, Arabs and LGBT people can theoretically establish their own new communities. However, I do not think this should be allowed in cities. In the proposal introduced by the government, the state does not discriminate. Citizens themselves can establish communities and decide, in a democratic way, whom to allow in and whom not to allow in. This is a good thing.

This is why more and more people call Israel an apartheid state.

[DavidB.]

This is why more and more people call Israel an apartheid state.

You have one guess as for how many f**ks I give.

also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?

This is fine for most people here.

Seriously, almost all "far/alt-right" people I know (and at this point I know quite a few of them, in quite a few countries) are either less antisemitic than many of the regulars here or not antisemitic at all, and they are considerably more respectful towards me and sympathetic to my pro-Israeli viewpoints. It's why I think right-wing antisemitism is much less of a problem in most countries than mainstream left antisemitism (let alone far-left and Islamist antisemitism). I do not feel the need to engage with the rabid antisemites here (this absolutely does not include people like Crabcake and Torie, but it does include some others...).