Poor conservatives, I don't get it. Righties please explain.

[Wonkish1]

A lot of this stems from GOP fear tactics of the past 25-30 years. They have been able to play on poor whites fears of race, homosexuality, change etc. and it has basically given them power.

It also doesn't help the Democrats have a reputation as out of touch and have really done nothing to change that narrative.

Here comes another ignorant shill ^^^^^ to furnish us with his oversimplified thought vomit.

What part of that was inaccurate?

So you want to advertise yourself as ignorant as well?

[Sbane]

"Poor conservatives" aren't a large group of people.

In certain parts of the country, they are.

[Kevin]

"Poor conservatives" aren't a large group of people.

And you are right Phk,

I share alot of commonalty with Don on this. My mother's side of the family is from an overwhelmingly white rural Republican area that has an Appalachian culture.

Most of the people who live there are socially conservative, in which the church and their faith(which is usually generic non-denominational "Bible Church", Methodist, or Catholic) plays an important part of their lives and for many guides their vote. Most of the people who live there are ether of Scots-Irish(American descent) or German, but there is also very large numbers of people who have Irish, Italian, French Canadian, or Eastern European lineage/ names. The county where my mother's side is from usually votes anywhere from 66%-77% GOP in elections across the board.  

Unlike what most of the teenage and other Dems on this forum typicality stereotype the people in the area I'm talking about are typically middle class or well-off/established working class. What I mean by this is that most make a comfortable salary for an area with a much lower cost of living then major cities or suburbs as well as hold a steady job. Many own their own home(not a trailer home). And despite the fact that many did not go to college, are able to send their own children onto higher education. Additionally, many from area that go on to college and further schooling that return or even if they don't still are pretty conservative overall.
  
However, many of the poor whites in question( that those who don't know what they are talking about) who receive state or other benefits actually don't vote like the same pattern many poor minority groups also show. And if they do, many actually vote Democratic because they support giving them all those welfare goodies etc.

Likewise, in the community I'm talking about some also still vote Democratic. There is alot of older retiree's who were in working class occupations who value social security, that vote Democratic in considerable numbers, however many of these grew up voting for the Dems. There are also a solid number of people who are members of labor unions who Democratic because they see the Republicans as an antithesis on this issue. Still some just don't like or trust the GOP because of the economic reforms & deregulation of the 1980's, which some blame for hitting communities like the one I'm describing hard. And many just vote Democratic out of habit or the past, since the community I'm describing is in what was once a Democratic leaning state.

So I think it goes to show how erroneous and partisan the thinking is in this thread.

[courts]

First of all, the question was about people doing whats in their own self interest. Many poor republicans don't want taxes to rise because they think it will effect their employment. That is much better answer than accusing of them being stupid or ignorant.

This is obviously just an experiential observation and not based on hard data, but poor Republicans whom I know tend to emphasize, in ascending order of importance:

5) Perception of government as inefficient and incompetent
4) Opposition to welfare
3) Traditional religious values (these rank much higher for some)
2) Resentment of cultural and academic elites whom they see as the agenda-setters for the Democratic Party
1) Pride in who they are (in terms of their values and lifestyles) & hostility to change that might threaten their way of life (immigration, non-traditional lifestyles, economic restructuring, multiculturalism, etc.)

I don't think that self-interest is a good way of explaining the voting behaviors of any group, whether they tend to vote for Republicans or Democrats.

This and what sbane posted in this cesspool.

[Wonkish1]

"Poor conservatives" aren't a large group of people.

And you are right Phk,

I share alot of commonalty with Don on this. My mother's side of the family is from an overwhelmingly white rural Republican area that has an Appalachian culture.

Most of the people who live there are socially conservative, in which the church and their faith(which is usually generic non-denominational "Bible Church", Methodist, or Catholic) plays an important part of their lives and for many guides their vote. Most of the people who live there are ether of Scots-Irish(American descent) or German, but there is also very large numbers of people who have Irish, Italian, French Canadian, or Eastern European lineage/ names. The county where my mother's side is from usually votes anywhere from 66%-77% GOP in elections across the board.  

Unlike what most of the teenage and other Dems on this forum typicality stereotype the people in the area I'm talking about are typically middle class or well-off/established working class. What I mean by this is that most make a comfortable salary for an area with a much lower cost of living then major cities or suburbs as well as hold a steady job. Many own their own home(not a trailer home). And despite the fact that many did not go to college, are able to send their own children onto higher education. Additionally, many from area that go on to college and further schooling that return or even if they don't still are pretty conservative overall.
  
However, many of the poor whites in question( that those who don't know what they are talking about) who receive state or other benefits actually don't vote like the same pattern many poor minority groups also show. And if they do, many actually vote Democratic because they support giving them all those welfare goodies etc.

Likewise, in the community I'm talking about some also still vote Democratic. There is alot of older retiree's who were in working class occupations who value social security, that vote Democratic in considerable numbers, however many of these grew up voting for the Dems. There are also a solid number of people who are members of labor unions who Democratic because they see the Republicans as an antithesis on this issue. Still some just don't like or trust the GOP because of the economic reforms & deregulation of the 1980's, which some blame for hitting communities like the one I'm describing hard. And many just vote Democratic out of habit or the past, since the community I'm describing is in what was once a Democratic leaning state.

So I think it goes to show how erroneous and partisan the thinking is in this thread.

To be sure though Appalachia, Iron Range, and Great Lakes territory is some of the last rural areas to start abandoning the Dems. Most rural areas dumped them years ago.

[Wonkish1]

First of all, the question was about people doing whats in their own self interest. Many poor republicans don't want taxes to rise because they think it will effect their employment. That is much better answer than accusing of them being stupid or ignorant.

This is obviously just an experiential observation and not based on hard data, but poor Republicans whom I know tend to emphasize, in ascending order of importance:

5) Perception of government as inefficient and incompetent
4) Opposition to welfare
3) Traditional religious values (these rank much higher for some)
2) Resentment of cultural and academic elites whom they see as the agenda-setters for the Democratic Party
1) Pride in who they are (in terms of their values and lifestyles) & hostility to change that might threaten their way of life (immigration, non-traditional lifestyles, economic restructuring, multiculturalism, etc.)

I don't think that self-interest is a good way of explaining the voting behaviors of any group, whether they tend to vote for Republicans or Democrats.

While I might quibble with the way you put number 1, I would agree with assessment.

The original OP though was about a poor conservative complaining about the idea of tax rates going up. Why would people like him care? Because they think it will affect their employment, salary, and standard of living even if the brunt of the tax increases aren't directed squarely at them.

Granted poor conservatives that focus on the list you just provided outnumber poor FiCons, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of poor FiCons out there(especially among younger folks). And its reasonably safe to assume that the people the OP is referring to that decry tax increases are more likely to be in the group I just mentioned not the one that you provided at the top.

But again we are also speaking in generalities here. There isn't a really a fine line between poor cultural conservatives and poor FiCons since there is large amounts of overlap.

[phk]

1.) Poor people throughout the country are closer in ideology than the rich people are throughout the country. There is less variation in political preferences of poor people from state-to-state than there is for rich people.

2.) The "culture wars" were mostly about upper-income culturally conservative and culturally liberal people duking it out on TV/Radio/etc.

3.) The archetypical Republican voter in the country is a high-income person in a low-income state.

4.) The archetypical Democratic voter in the country is a low-income person in a high-income state.

5.) I wouldn't say a historic D voter pulling the lever for R's occasionally makes one a "conservative".

[Link]

I also think the more liberals complain about "poor people voting against their best interests", the more some poor people will vote Republican.

And the same goes for assuming nefarious motives instead of considering the issue from another's point of view (not that I've never done the same thing).

The whole 'what's the matter with Kansas' arguement is fallacious, anyway; if social issues were so unimportant, then the Democrats would have no reason not to adopt the social issues of those voting against them in order to try and advance their fiscal agenda.  The truth is, the Democratic and Republican coalitions simply appeal to different 'social issues' voters.

That's a pretty good point, actually.

I find it amusing that so many people take for granted that people "should" vote their self-interest. Maybe some people simply have values playing a part in their voting?

I think it's amusing what some people call "values."  Here are some values... I'll force a rape victim to carry her attacker's child to term, and I will slash her welfare payment so she can be destitute for 18 years while she raises the kid.  When I hear "values" voters... I stop listening.

[All Along The Watchtower]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/the_submerged_state_in_one_gra.html

[courts]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

They have the same effect as "programs."

[Link]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

[courts]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

A government policy isn't the same as a "program." The word "Program" implies spending. Of course I don't really agree with encouraging home ownership but that's another issue.

[tpfkaw]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

Oh look, it is Einzige!

[All Along The Watchtower]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

A government policy isn't the same as a "program." The word "Program" implies spending.

Both cost the government revenue, though. Both are tailored to certain groups over others. Both could be called "welfare."

Those of us on the left of American politics are pointing out the right's hypocrisy and inconsistency regarding government programs. They can not like government in general, that's fine. I hear Somalia doesn't have a very powerful government.

[Wonkish1]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

They have the same effect as "programs."

No they don't. They are completely different things. And this only further demonstrates that you don't really have a clue as to what your talking about.

[phk]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

A government policy isn't the same as a "program." The word "Program" implies spending.

Both cost the government revenue, though. Both are tailored to certain groups over others. Both could be called "welfare."

Those of us on the left of American politics are pointing out the right's hypocrisy and inconsistency regarding government programs. They can not like government in general, that's fine. I hear Somalia doesn't have a very powerful government.

Programs don't cost the government revenue.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

They have the same effect as "programs."

No they don't. They are completely different things. And this only further demonstrates that you don't really have a clue as to what your talking about.

How are they different?

[courts]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

A government policy isn't the same as a "program." The word "Program" implies spending.

Both cost the government revenue, though. Both are tailored to certain groups over others. Both could be called "welfare."

Those of us on the left of American politics are pointing out the right's hypocrisy and inconsistency regarding government programs.

There's a huge difference between policies aimed at redistributing other people's money and simply not taking as much from people if they meet certain criteria. If I were a geriatric attacking Obamacare as socialism while demanding more medicare I'd be a hypocrite. On the other hand if I were to offer the same criticism while demanding something like medical savings accounts, that would be totally different. Unless you think our wealth is really the government's money and they're just allowing us the privilege of keeping some for ourselves, I don't see how you could think such a distinction is minor.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I hear North Korea has a strong one. See, I can also make inane comments.

[Wonkish1]

How are they different?

Well first of all do you even know what the effect of a deduction is? If I buy something and its deductible what happens?

There is an argument that a tax ****credit**** is a subsidy and I agree with that argument, but a subsidy is still not a program.

A program is government expenditure where a government entity have oversight control in its implementation. Medicare is a government program. Food stamps is a government program.

A tax credit for research and development is not a program it is a subsidy.

[Link]

There's a huge difference between policies aimed at redistributing other people's money and simply not taking as much from people if they meet certain criteria.

I agree.  If you meet the criteria of being in the 99% we should not take 50% of your income over $5 million/yr.  Good plan.  I totally agree.

[Link]

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Oh look, it's this lame talking point again.

It's not a talking point.  It's reality.  None of the major things Republicans are discussing are theoretical.  It's all been tried before with varying degress of success (by which I mean failure).  There are numerous countries with weak central governments and low taxes on the rich that would love for US millionares to relocate.  Ever wonder why you don't see an exodus?  Think about it.

[tpfkaw]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh look, it's this lame talking point again.

It's not a talking point.  It's reality.  None of the major things Republicans are discussing are theoretical.  It's all been tried before with varying degress of success (by which I mean failure).  There are numerous countries with weak central governments and low taxes on the rich that would love for US millionares to relocate.  Ever wonder why you don't see an exodus?  Think about it.

You do see an exodus, Zig.  Naturally, most millionaires, having got to their position by being responsible individuals, are not going to uproot their whole family to move somewhere else, but plenty do move to the "tax havens" that liberals moan about and demand people be banned from relocating to or incorporating in.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

Yes the mortgage interest deduction is a government program to increase home ownership.  It discriminates against people like me who rent.

A government policy isn't the same as a "program." The word "Program" implies spending. Of course I don't really agree with encouraging home ownership but that's another issue.

It implies more than just spending, even. It implies something administered.

[Wonkish1]

It implies more than just spending, even. It implies something administered.

Bingo!