ARG in West Virginia!
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Author Topic: ARG in West Virginia!  (Read 5581 times)
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Miamiu1027
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« on: March 25, 2004, 03:39:26 PM »

Kerry 46%
Bush 46%
Nader 2%
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MarkDel
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2004, 03:41:00 PM »


Miami,

That's about what I expected. This state will be VERY close this fall...could go either way.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2004, 03:42:34 PM »

I think Kerry will win it by 2-6%.
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MarkDel
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2004, 03:49:00 PM »


Maybe, but I think it could just as easily go 2-6% the other way like it did in 2000. If any candidate carries West Virginia by double digits, you'll be looking at a national landslide.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2004, 03:50:12 PM »

If any candidate carries West Virginia by double digits, you'll be looking at a national landslide.

Agreed.  I still think the Dems will get enough votes from the coal mines to win.
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MarkDel
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2004, 03:54:53 PM »

Miami,

It helps the Dems that Kerry is a quasi-War Hero because that will appeal to those coal miners you're talking about. But overall, the Dems have slipped here as they moved away from a "labor first" message to an "environment first, labor second" message. The party did best in West Virginia when they were the blue collar guys out to help the little people, but to people in West Virginia, they will have a hard time relating to the idea that they have to pay higher gas prices, for example, so that environmentalists can protect the 1/10th of 1% of the Alaskan Wildlife Preserve.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2004, 04:08:36 PM »

46-46... advantage Kerry!
Undecideds usually split 75% against the incumbent party... especially in West Virginia.

Looking like '88 all over again...
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Ben.
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2004, 04:25:00 PM »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election, as the national trend might well be in line with the result in WV... but its eight mounths yet...
     
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MarkDel
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2004, 04:26:11 PM »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election, as the national trend might well be in line with the result in WV... but its eight mounths yet...
     

Maybe, but I think the Democrats have a natural advantage in West Virginia that gives them the edge here every year.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2004, 04:27:28 PM »

I think this is surprisingly good for Kerry...I still think that he'll lose WV in the end...just like he'll lose OH and PA...and the election...
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MarkDel
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2004, 04:30:27 PM »

I think this is surprisingly good for Kerry...I still think that he'll lose WV in the end...just like he'll lose OH and PA...and the election...

Gustaf,

I agree with you on Ohio, and I actually do rate Pennsylvania as an ever so slight edge to Bush...take a look at my map...I'd show if I could figure out how to post it. You young guys have a huge edge over us old guys who didn't grow up using computers...LOL
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2004, 04:30:37 PM »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election, as the national trend might well be in line with the result in WV... but its eight mounths yet...    

If the Byrd-Rahall machine can get enough people out to vote in the Coal District or if the Steelworkers stay angry... Kerry wins.

If this is the case the map'll look a bit like this:

Except that Ohio County will be in red.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2004, 04:38:01 PM »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election

WV is such an odd state.  It may swing with OH, but then it may swing independently of everyone else.  I don't think the outcome in WV will be predictive of any other state, or of the national result.  Ohio is a much better barometer.
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Ben.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2004, 04:41:27 PM »


I think this is surprisingly good for Kerry...I still think that he'll lose WV in the end...just like he'll lose OH and PA...and the election...

Gustaf... I really really don’t get why you rate Kerry as doing so poorly in the "steel states"... these are states that have done really badly under Bush... WV and OH  in particular and WV is historically Dem territory added to that Gore won PA by nearly 5%... so why are you so pessimistic?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2004, 04:42:30 PM »
« Edited: March 25, 2004, 04:45:32 PM by The Vorlon »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election, as the national trend might well be in line with the result in WV... but its eight mounths yet...    

If the Byrd-Rahall machine can get enough people out to vote in the Coal District or if the Steelworkers stay angry... Kerry wins.

If this is the case the map'll look a bit like this:

Except that Ohio County will be in red.

I have WV as a slight lean to Kerry.  In 2002 the Democrats had a 61% to 29% advantage in voter registration - thats a heck of an edge.

Gore's stance on coal really killed him in 2000, and I can't believe Kerry (or anybody) could be that stupid again.  West Vorginia is a traditional democratic base state - heck even Dukakis carried it.

Back to the Dems IMHO... Smiley  - Nice to see Gustaf back on the boards!!!
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2004, 04:44:34 PM »

46-46... advantage Kerry!
Undecideds usually split 75% against the incumbent party... especially in West Virginia.

Looking like '88 all over again...

In 2000 the late deciding/undecided broke 2 to 1 for Gore in the last week....
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Gustaf
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2004, 04:45:56 PM »


I think this is surprisingly good for Kerry...I still think that he'll lose WV in the end...just like he'll lose OH and PA...and the election...

Gustaf... I really really don’t get why you rate Kerry as doing so poorly in the "steel states"... these are states that have done really badly under Bush... WV and OH  in particular and WV is historically Dem territory added to that Gore won PA by nearly 5%... so why are you so pessimistic?


To win those states you have to win the blue collar vote...and Kerry is really a man of the people, real worker's appeal...he's not at all a rich elitist...and he's really liberal, expect for free trade, of course...this guy knows how to pick his issues, doesn't he? Of course, he'll flip-flop back, but still...the only chance of a Dem candidate is to run on a socially moderate, semi-hawkish, ecponomically populist protectionist message. Kerry is the other way around on all scores. That'll cost him the close steel states.
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MN-Troy
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2004, 05:58:06 PM »

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I wouldn't look at party registration has any indicator of how the state is going to vote for a president. If that was the case both Kentucky and Oklahoma should be an easy win for Kerry.

But given the nature of West Virgina, I'd still give the edge to the Democrats (not based on party registration)
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Gustaf
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2004, 06:00:39 PM »

Al... is proably right... if Kerry and Bush are evenly divided in WV at this stage Kerry may have the upper hand... steel workers in the north or the state and the population in the south are the keys to his victory... In fact WV could be a bellweather for this election... who ever wins WV might well win the election, as the national trend might well be in line with the result in WV... but its eight mounths yet...    

If the Byrd-Rahall machine can get enough people out to vote in the Coal District or if the Steelworkers stay angry... Kerry wins.

If this is the case the map'll look a bit like this:

Except that Ohio County will be in red.

I have WV as a slight lean to Kerry.  In 2002 the Democrats had a 61% to 29% advantage in voter registration - thats a heck of an edge.

Gore's stance on coal really killed him in 2000, and I can't believe Kerry (or anybody) could be that stupid again.  West Vorginia is a traditional democratic base state - heck even Dukakis carried it.

Back to the Dems IMHO... Smiley  - Nice to see Gustaf back on the boards!!!

I haven't been gone really...nice to be here... Smiley
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MN-Troy
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2004, 06:15:31 PM »

If you check out the ARG website, it shows that 22% of Democrats are willing to vote for President Bush, and also the Presidents leads among independent voters.

Not a good sign for Kerry at this time--things could change though.

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/wv/
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2004, 06:17:37 PM »

If you check out the ARG website, it shows that 22% of Democrats are willing to vote for President Bush

It's not a problem, WV has the highest %Reg Dem rating in the nation with 61%, and manyt of those people (as you may well imagine) vote routinely Republican in NAtional elections.
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zachman
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2004, 06:40:29 PM »

Based on the favorability rankings, Bush has a better shot here. Bush's unfavorable rating was only in the thirties.
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ian
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2004, 06:53:58 PM »

WV is the only tossup state on my map.  I don't really know how the people there are going to vote; however, I hope that it's for Kerry.  And why in the heck is MO so strongly in favor of Bush?  That has to be some sort of political tool in the poll department.  Ben, what is it that you have been seeing in MO about feelings towards Bush and Kerry?
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ian
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2004, 06:56:02 PM »

This is an article that I found at http://www.pollingreport.com/incumbent.htm and I think it relates well to the subject.


Incumbent Races:
Closer Than They Appear
by Nick Panagakis

 

How will undecideds vote on election day? Traditionally, there have been two schools of thought about how undecideds in trial heat match-ups will divide up at the ballot box. One is that they will break equally; the other, that they will split in proportion to poll respondents who stated a candidate preference.

But our analysis of 155 polls reveals that, in races that include an incumbent, the traditional answers are wrong. Over 80% of the time, most or all of the undecideds voted for the challenger.

The 155 polls we collected and analyzed were the final polls conducted in each particular race; most were completed within two weeks of election day. They cover both general and primary elections, and Democratic and Republican incumbents. They are predominantly from statewide races, with a few U.S. House, mayoral and countywide contests thrown in. Most are from the 1986 and 1988 elections, although a few stretch back to the 1970s.

The polls we studied included our own surveys, polls provided to us directly by CBS, Gallup, Gordon S. Black Corp., Market Opinion Research, Tarrance Associates, and Mason-Dixon Opinion Research, as well as polls that appeared in The Polling Report.

In 127 cases out of 155, most or all of the undecideds went for the challenger:
 
DISPOSITION OF UNDECIDED VOTERS

.
Most to challenger   127
Split equally   9
Most to incumbent   19




The fact that challengers received a majority of the undecided vote in 82% of the cases studied proves that undecideds do not split proportionally. If there were a tendency for them to split proportionally we would see most undecided voters moving to incumbents, since incumbents win most elections. Similarly, even accounting for sample error, it’s clear from the chart above that undecideds do not split equally.

For poll users and reporters this phenomenon, which we call the Incumbent Rule, means:

*   Incumbent races should not be characterized in terms of point spread. If a poll shows one candidate leading 50% to 40%, with 10% undecided, a 10-point spread will occur on election day only if undecideds split equally (i.e. a 55% to 45% outcome). Since most of the 10 points in the undecided category are likely to go to the challenger, polls are a lot closer than they look – 50% to 40% is likely to become 52% to 48%, on election day. If a poll is a mirror of public opinion, think of an incumbent poll as one in which objects are closer than they appear.


*   An incumbent leading with less than 50% (against one challenger) is frequently in trouble; how much depends on how much less than 50%. A common pattern has been for incumbents ahead with 50% or less to end up losing. Final polls showing losing incumbents ahead are accurate. The important question is whether results are reported with an understanding of how undecideds decide.


*   Many polls may have been improperly analyzed and reported. Some postmortem accounts of polls have been inaccurate -- many polls remembered as wrong were, in fact, right. It’s only natural to interpret the term "undecided" literally. But as with so many other findings in survey research, data should be analyzed according to what they mean, not what they say.


 

Undecided about the Incumbent
Why do undecided voters decide in favor of challengers?

It seems that undecided voters are not literally undecided, not straddling the fence unable to make a choice – the traditional interpretation. An early decision to vote for the incumbent is easier because voters know incumbents best. It helps to think of undecided voters as undecided about the incumbent, as voters who question the incumbent’s performance in office. Most or all voters having trouble with this decision appear to end up deciding against the incumbent.

The exceptions we found to the Incumbent Rule help support the theory on why this happens.

Many challengers who did not get a majority of undecideds were recent or current holders of an office equal to the one they were seeking. Voters were equally or more familiar with the challenger’s past performance in a similar office, so the challenger assumed incumbent characteristics. Other exceptions include well-known challengers or short-term incumbents.

Some examples of where more undecideds voted for incumbents or split evenly:

Last year in Minnesota, where Hubert Humphrey III challenged Sen. David Durenberger; and in Nebraska, where Bob Kerrey, the former governor, challenged David Karnes, who had been appointed to his Senate seat. In 1986 in Florida, when incumbent Sen. Paula Hawkins faced ex-Gov. Bob Graham. And in Chicago in 1979, where two-year incumbent Mayor Michael Bilandic split undecided voters with challenger Jane Byrne.

These examples and similar ones account for 17 of the 28 exceptions to the Incumbent Rule that we uncovered. In some of the remaining cases, the incumbent simply turned the race around in the final days. A good example of this is the 1982 Missouri Senate race pitting incumbent John Danforth against Harriet Woods. Other exceptions can be explained by sampling error.

There is an interesting pattern in the polls where most undecideds voted for challengers. In 98 of the 127 cases (77%), the incumbents’ final polls standing was plus or minus four percentage points from the actual election result. The most frequent result was two points gained by the incumbent over the final poll preferences -- 24 cases in all.

In 41 cases, or 32% of the 127, the incumbent ended with less than his stated poll percentage. This means that about one in four of all 155 polls actually overstated the incumbent’s percentage.

Of the 127 challengers who gained more undecideds than did incumbents on election day, 78 gained 10 or more points over their stated poll percentage.

Making allowances for factors stated above, most polls appear to estimate support for the incumbent. All or most undecideds end up with the challenger regardless of the size of the undecideds.

Most troublesome are polls showing an incumbent leading but who ends up losing the election.

Some examples: In Wisconsin in 1986, incumbent Gov. Tony Earl and incumbent Attorney General Bronson LaFollette were ahead in the late polls with less than 50%, but lost by five and seven points, respectively. In 1986, one poll showed Georgia incumbent Sen. Mack Mattingly ahead by 10 points, but he gained only one more point to lose with 49%. In 1984, incumbent Illinois Sen. Charles Percy led with 45% and 49% in final polls and wound up losing the election 48% to 50%. ...

Avoiding Election Day Surprises
The overwhelming evidence is that an incumbent won’t share the undecideds equally with the challenger. To suggest otherwise by emphasizing point spread or to say that an incumbent is ahead when his or her percentage is well under 50% leads to election day surprises.
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opebo
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2004, 07:06:08 PM »

WV is the only tossup state on my map.  I don't really know how the people there are going to vote; however, I hope that it's for Kerry.  And why in the heck is MO so strongly in favor of Bush?  That has to be some sort of political tool in the poll department.  Ben, what is it that you have been seeing in MO about feelings towards Bush and Kerry?

I'm sitting here in Missouri right now, and I think that the state has been slowly trending GOP for 15 to 20 years now.  Basically its been becoming more like Indiana or Kansas, and less like Illinois - all kindred states.
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