time to talk Turkey again (note to BushOK, the topic aint Thanksgiving)

[dead0man]

Not sure how I (we?) missed this.  google link, pick your poison

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link

[ag]

Second most important military force in NATA?  By far?  It's got the second most number of dudes and is probably number 1 when it comes to strategic placement, but I know I'd rather have the UK or Germany on my side. 

Well, Turkey, probably, has as many tanks as UK, France and Germany together. And, for that matter, to a lot of people in Europe it does seem like it's not Turkey, which is pushing for war, but your side. So, I wouldn't count on more than very wary neutrality from quite a few other NATO states, besides Turkey.

[dead0man]

Anybody that thinks "my side" is pushing for war more than Turkey is either isn't paying attention, is lying in defense or is just willfully ignorant.  And I certainly wasn't insinuating that the UK or Germany would get involved in this (not sure how I'm supposed to interpret that last line).


As for the comparing of militaries, I'll just point out that vast majority of Turkish tanks were made in the US in the 1950s and 60s.   On the other hand, both Germany and the UK currently make their own, very well respected, main battle tank (and have forever).  To be fair to Turkey though, they do have some early 90s German tanks and have started making their own MBT....which they may have a few of by 2015.

But my point?  Number of tanks is one of the more worthless meassures of a modern military.

[ag]

Anybody that thinks "my side" is pushing for war more than Turkey is either isn't paying attention, is lying in defense or is just willfully ignorant. 

Well, the same, really, applies to anyone who is saying that Turkey is pushing for war more than Israel, doesn't it? However - and this is what's making the Israeli position so untenable - Turks are, at least, seen as pushing for peace (which is something that cannot be said about the current Israeli government).

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Turkey has publically named IDF soldiers involved in vessel raid:

Israeli soldiers were named in a Turkish newspaper on Monday as bearing responsibility for the IDF's response to the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara in which nine Turkish militants were killed.

Also, Erdogan claimed on CNN that  that Israel has killed thousands of Palestinians and uses Holocaust to perpetrate victimhood.

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Looks like Erdogan wants to squabble.

[GMantis]

While Turkey tends to use a hysterically belligerent tone against anyone who has incurred their wrath, they don't actually do anything against those who are not push-overs. The idea of Turkey tarting a war with a nuclear power is one of jmfcst usual wishful fantasies.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

While Turkey tends to use a hysterically belligerent tone against anyone who has incurred their wrath, they don't actually do anything against those who are not push-overs. The idea of Turkey tarting a war with a nuclear power is one of jmfcst usual wishful fantasies.

a Turkish-Israeli war is a jmfcst wishful fantasy?!  that would be news to jmfcst.

note to GMantis:  there is nothing like having money and a family to make a person pray for peace...and nothing invites war more than naivete.

[dead0man]

Well, the same, really, applies to anyone who is saying that Turkey is pushing for war more than Israel, doesn't it?

Well as soon as Israel threatens a nation for drilling in their own territory I'll agree with you.  As soon as Israel threatens to use warships to force it's way through a legal blockade I'll agree with you.

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So warning and threatening EVERYBODY that isn't toeing the Turkey line is "pushing for peace" now?  Who knew?

[Insula Dei]

I'll get in touch with you the moment the Turkish army starts killing Israeli citizens in International waters, shall I?

But the main thing here is, obviously, that Turkey (and Erdogan for that matter) has a history of normal relations with Israel and of pushing for peace in the region. Now, why would Turkey so completely change its tone in a matter of months?

[dead0man]

After snubbing Israel, Turkey to hold defense drills with Syria

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That was in 2009.  Which was three years after Turkey warmly greeted Hamas on it's first official state visit.  Turkey has been turning away from the west and towards Iran and company for a decade.  Sure, they've been more subtle about it than Pakistan, but they are sharing the same road..

[ag]

One thing that you should understand is that your problem is not Turkish government - which, in this case, says things many, if not most, Europeans think to be self-evident. You aren't going to fight a war because of anything that the Turkish government does. Your problem is your own government, which has managed to antagonize the entire world, bar the US Republican party and some European ultra-rightists with its strangely Trostkyite insistence on neither peace nor war (comrade Lieberman would have gotten my reference ) ).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

After snubbing Israel, Turkey to hold defense drills with Syria

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That was in 2009.  Which was three years after Turkey warmly greeted Hamas on it's first official state visit.  Turkey has been turning away from the west and towards Iran and company for a decade.  Sure, they've been more subtle about it than Pakistan, but they are sharing the same road..

2009 is a long time ago.  At this time I think I would less surprised to hear of Assad making a state visit to Israel than to Turkey.  Not because a state visit of Assad to Israel would not be a complete surprise, but because it is at least possible if a deal over the Golan acceptable to both sides could be arranged, and Assad might be willing to do the unexpected in the current situation.  Assad traveling to Ankara is impossible right now.

1 in a duodecillion is better odds than 0 in a duodecillion .

[Landslide Lyndon]

I'll get in touch with you the moment the Turkish army starts killing Israeli citizens in International waters, shall I?

But the main thing here is, obviously, that Turkey (and Erdogan for that matter) has a history of normal relations with Israel and of pushing for peace in the region. Now, why would Turkey so completely change its tone in a matter of months?

Turkey has changed completely it's foreign policy direction. Instead of pursuing EU membership and becoming a respectable Western peripheral country, they decided to become a regional Middle East power and revive the old Ottoman Empire through diplomacy.
And what better way to become popular among Arab countries than confronting Israel?

[dead0man]

2009 is a long time ago.  

I was responding to BS's claim that Turkey was turning against the Israel and the west out of nowhere and only because of the (legal) Gaza blockade.  Which is obviously false to any one that is paying attention.

[Insula Dei]

2009 is a long time ago.  

I was responding to BS's claim that Turkey was turning against the Israel and the west out of nowhere and only because of the (legal) Gaza blockade.  Which is obviously false to any one that is paying attention.

That wasn't exactly my claim. What I was trying to say wasn't that Turkey's beef with Israel was the gaza blockade (it most likely doesn't really care about that), but the way Israel failed to make any sort of reconciliatory gesture towards Ankara after the Flotilla mess-up.

Also, insisting that the blockade is legal is pretty irrelevant. Slavery too was mostcertainly legal.

[dead0man]

But remember, the main thing here is, obviously, that

Turkey (and Erdogan for that matter) has a history of normal relations with Israel and of pushing for peace in the region. Now, why would Turkey so completely change its tone in a matter of months?

Which is clearly false.

[Insula Dei]

Well, I don't know what you would perceive to be 'normal' relations with Israel, but as far as non-US puppet governments in that area of the World are concerned, being on speaking terms with the Israeli government is as good as it gets. And Turkey certainly does not have much of a history of pushing for a military confrontation with Israel.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, I don't know what you would perceive to be 'normal' relations with Israel, but as far as non-US puppet governments in that area of the World are concerned, being on speaking terms with the Israeli government is as good as it gets.

so, then there is nothing to be alarmed about Turkey trading its old relations with Israel for a relationship with Israel modeled after Syria's or Iran's?  Then I guess there is nothing to be alarmed about as Egypt unwinds the Camp David Accords and resumes a hostile posture towards Israel.  And, I guess there shouldn't be any alarm is Jordan's government falls and becomes hostile towards Israel....

...it all just par for the course....right? 

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And Turkey certainly does not have much of a history of pushing for a military confrontation with Israel.

Neither did Iran before 1979

[dead0man]

Well, I don't know what you would perceive to be 'normal' relations with Israel, but as far as non-US puppet governments in that area of the World are concerned, being on speaking terms with the Israeli government is as good as it gets. And Turkey certainly does not have much of a history of pushing for a military confrontation with Israel.

I guess that's the closest to an "I was wrong" anyone is ever going to get out of you.

[Insula Dei]

Well, I don't know what you would perceive to be 'normal' relations with Israel, but as far as non-US puppet governments in that area of the World are concerned, being on speaking terms with the Israeli government is as good as it gets. And Turkey certainly does not have much of a history of pushing for a military confrontation with Israel.

I guess that's the closest to an "I was wrong" anyone is ever going to get out of you.

Well, if plainly rehearsing my first comment counts as admitting I was wrong, yeah, that's as close as you're gonna get.

[dead0man]

Do you still think Turkey just started turning away from Israel several months ago?

[Insula Dei]

Oh no, I do accept the idea that Turkey-Israel relations were going slowly down-hill over the last few years , but when you look at the relations between the two countries before the flotilla incident and 18 months later, you have to admit that the fall-out has certainly immensely accelerated the process and that it made it possible for the two countries to suddenly start talking in quite warlike rhetoric.

[dead0man]

Of course.  The actions by both sides during the flotilla crisis were actions that were destined to draw them apart.  If I was a conspiracy minded person I'd suggest it might be part of some larger "plan" by one side or both.

[dead0man]

link

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