SENATE BILL: GTO Expansion Act of 2011 (On the President's desk)

[bgwah]

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Sponsor: AHDuke99

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is a relatively clear cut bill, Senators.  Expanding to include South Sudan and Somaliland not only enhances the stature of those deserving nations, but it allows the GTO and, by extension, Atlasia to remain relevant on the continent of Africa.  I urge quick passage of the bill, and a quick transition to the Libya aid bill.

[Napoleon]

I oppose this.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I oppose this.

Reasoning?  Or are your opponents the only people required to give an explanation?

[tmthforu94]

I oppose this.

Napoleon, it would be greatly appreciated in the future if you just went ahead and explained in your post why you oppose it instead of leaving it upon others to ask you why. This has happened multiple times now.

[bgwah]

I'm not sure why this would be controversial. Recognizing Somaliland could be, but Atlasia already did that a while ago. Even Sudan recognizes South Sudan.

[CatoMinor]

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The way this is written it sounds, at least to me, like the Government is given the authority to do whatever it wants to do as long as it is passed off as "necessary to implement the provisions of the treaty" in the other member countries.

I could be wrong in how I am reading this, but this sounds awfully close to just giving us the authority to do whatever we want in other member nations so I oppose this bill.

On a side note, as long as we are talking about the GTO, why not make the office of GTO Ambassador non-playable?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The way this is written it sounds, at least to me, like the Government is given the authority to do whatever it wants to do as long as it is passed off as "necessary to implement the provisions of the treaty" in the other member countries.

I could be wrong in how I am reading this, but this sounds awfully close to just giving us the authority to do whatever we want in other member nations so I oppose this bill.

It has not traditionally been interpreted that way by past DoEAs.  Certainly, no DoEA has ever acted on the ability, if it exists.  Additionally, it would be impossible for Atlasia to do anything if the other member nations do not overwhelmingly consent.  Section 3 also makes clear that the Treaty only applies to nations that continue to follow the Treaty's provisions.  If they stop doing so, they are essentially forfeiting membership in the GTO, and Atlasia can no longer involve itself in those places to enforce the regulations.

On a side note, as long as we are talking about the GTO, why not make the office of GTO Ambassador non-playable?

We went through this with Napoleon's bill a while ago.  The GTO Ambassador has been extremely helpful in crafting foreign policy.  I remain firmly opposed to eliminating the GTO Ambassadorship as a playable position, at least for the conceivable future.

[Hash]

The GTO was apparently founded as an organization for wealthy liberal democratic nations, which is quite a bad idea but one which can make some sense. If we're just going to expand it to all other countries, then what's the use of it? To have a second UN because we don't like the first one?

That is ignoring the fact that South Sudan is not a democracy. It is an authoritarian one-party state, as I've noted in the past here:

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Including South Sudan might make us feel all warm and fuzzy and goes along with the West's disgusting mass erection over it because it's a Christian country ignoring the fact that it's a single-party authoritarian state. I don't have no problems with them, but I do have a problem with including such a country into an organization founded on explicitly democratic, liberal principles. "They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilizations of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being across the globe." or "They affirm that an affront against liberty in any part of the world is an affront to liberty everywhere."

[Napoleon]

I don't feel compelled to explain my reasoning to a close-minded DoEA. If my constituents have concerns, or other Senators, I will be glad to explain.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I don't feel compelled to explain my reasoning to a close-minded DoEA. If my constituents have concerns, or other Senators, I will be glad to explain.

That's absolutely hilarious, Senator.  I don't know where this idea of my being "close minded" came about, but it's false and it hurts the process.  The fact that you won't explain your objections just because I'm the one who asked is deeply disappointing.  No other Senator has the same problem conversing with me that you do, so you should reexamine your position.

[bgwah]

Does the SoEA have a response to Hashemite's post?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Does the SoEA have a response to Hashemite's post?

Yes, of course.
South Sudan is not perfect; I'll be the first to admit this.  However, it is important to remember this is a new nation; they're still working.  Including them now will increase pressure on the SPLM to liberalize, and will lead to just that outcome.  South Sudan has already begun to liberalize in the last few months, a process which will continue.  I don't see any reason to delay their admittance, when they have already begun the process towards full liberalization.

I also take offense at Hashemite's disgusting description of our motivation.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Does the SoEA have a response to Hashemite's post?

I do.

In real life, certain details conflict with the fiction we have built in Atlasia. No one here is arguing that either Somaliland or South Sudan are perfect countries, but they currently lack much play on the international level, Somaliland in particular. Many problems plague those two countries, but in Atlasia's universe, they have shown willingness to budge. If international recognition and diplomatic influence can be granted to nations in exchange for their willingness to change I see no real downside.

I support abolishing the GTO, frankly. I never liked it, when I was Senator I was the only one to oppose expanding it, and I think it's pointless overall. But as it exists, it makes little sense to exclude these two.

The proposal leaves out one nation that was considering joining; Nigeria. The reasons for that are because they were stubborn and unwilling to change any of their policies in return for joining the GTO in either my or Ben's reporting. So they don't get to join. We have some standards.

To try and argue this purely on a realistic level would be missing the point. The very existence of the GTO is a silly fictional change that exists purely for Atlasia's purposes. A game reason is as legitimate as anything else, in my view. The GTO is given some sort of importance in the game, we have a storyline that actually matters, we have something for the Senate to do, in turn, both Ben and I have something more to continue reporting on.

I don't feel compelled to explain my reasoning to a close-minded DoEA. If my constituents have concerns, or other Senators, I will be glad to explain.

You almost never seem to explain your reasons for nearly any bill.

The way this is written it sounds, at least to me, like the Government is given the authority to do whatever it wants to do as long as it is passed off as "necessary to implement the provisions of the treaty" in the other member countries.

On a side note, as long as we are talking about the GTO, why not make the office of GTO Ambassador non-playable?

Personally that's why I think complaining about South Sudan and Somaliland joining the GTO is actually kind of amusing. We're arguing about their standing to join a completely fictional international organization with membership procedure that would be completely outrageous and unacceptable in real-world circumstances.

Though I still support abolishing it, of course.

As for your side note, I would strongly caution the Senate against such a thing. The GTO Ambassador is hardly a critical position, but it's helpful and has some worth, where before the GTO was practically irrelevant. That is an improvement. Both I and the SoEA, people who are actually in the position to be impacted by such a decision the most, are firmly opposed to getting rid of it.

[bgwah]

I am bringing this bill to a final vote. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

[Napoleon]

Nay. They've taken one step forward but we can and should encourage more. Let them prove how serious they are.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Aye

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Aye

[Fuzzybigfoot]

Aye

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

aye

[CatoMinor]

Abstain

[bgwah]

abstain


This has enough votes to pass. Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I keep going back and forth in my mind regarding this and whether it should or shouldn't be passed. I like the idea of including these two countries considering the circumstances but I have concerns over parts of the text.

So reluctantly, I abstain.

[bgwah]

Vote talley:
4 ayes
1 nay
4 abstentions (1 non-voting)

This bill has passed and is presented to the President for his signature.

[Bacon King]

A few things to say, here:

Somaliland has significant issues with its territorial integrity: in the east, they claim three separate provinces that are under the de facto control of Puntland; in the west, the province of Awdal has recently attempted secession. A Somaliland membership in the GTO would obligate Atlasia- along with all other member states- to take large-scale military action against Puntland and Awdalland.

I echo Hashemite's concerns over the inclusion of South Sudan, as well: an authoritarian one-party state is not democratic to the extent that (should be) required for consideration into GTO membership.

I do believe these two nations have shown that they are willing to improve their human rights records, and I believe that Atlasia should continue working closely with these nations, providing developmental aid and assisting them with efforts to combat extremism. However, I have reservations about offering full membership in the GTO to these nations, and I am therefore seriously considering a veto.

However, before I do that, I'd like to give the supporters of this bill a chance to respond.