The Future of Social Conservatism

[TJ in Oregon]

It has been the conventional wisdom for some time now that the sum total of ideas we now consider to be social conservatism is, in the long run, dying. Many, probably even most people who are politically informed see gay marriage and marijuana legalization as inevitable, and abortion as here to stay. The picture of related ideas also looks pretty terrible from the socon perspective. Liberals often view these types of issues as a type of ‘progress’ onward to an unending process of civilization, the social equivalent of science: anything to oppose is backward and arcane.

So the question I want to pose in this thread isn’t about an individual issue or debate (ie. abortion, gay marriage, etc.) but rather is it “inevitable” that the collective set of issues we now refer to as social conservatism will die?

My immediate thought is that I cannot objectively see a political reason why the bleak outlook should reverse itself. I can’t and I don’t want to live in some kind of fantasyland like most of my social conservative allies where we all pretend we’re somehow “winning” among “real Americans” and the “leftwing fringe” are a bunch of “haters”. That’s the sort of vibe I get from most socon politicians, particularly but not limited to southern Evangelicals. But all the framing aside, I’d have to be delusional to think we’re winning. As an interesting proxy, religious identification continues to decline in the US, and while I know plenty of people with socially conservative views who are not religious, a decline in religion will almost certainly lead to a decline in social conservative views. It all seems like too big a freight train to stop and I fear at some point these ideas will no longer be politically viable and will only exist as an element of personal morality, largely ignored and marginalized by society in general. There are some issues I am already beginning to see this way, like opposition to gay marriage.

On some level, social conservatism is always losing because it seeks to maintain traditional values and the very nature of tradition in itself seeks to maintain the status quo and resist change. But, it rarely if ever seeks to change the status quo in an alternative direction. So, in this construction every time something changes, social conservatism loses but cannot ever win because it is only looking to maintain the status quo.

But is eventual defeat “inevitable”? I, for one, don’t believe much in political inevitabilities since we have no idea what is or isn’t going to happen at some point in the future. People are strange creatures in that they often hold obviously self-contradictory positions. Still, it doesn’t look good.

[Meeker]

I think lumping them all together is a mistake. I do think gay marriage is inevitable because it's an issue that revoles around inclusiveness and understanding. As more people meet more openly gay people they're more and more OK with the idea. Unless gay people start going back into the closet en masse, this is a change that is going to happen eventually.

Marijuana legalization and abortion are different though. Attitudes toward those actions shift overtime for various reasons. Restriction on marijuana usage only really took off in the early 20th century. Restrictions on abortions didn't really appear until the mid-19th century.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

you're forgetting that Jesus Christ predicted the moral decay of the last days and used the publically accepted sin of homosexuality in Lot's day as his example:

"As it was in the days of Lot, even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:29-30)

Or do you think it is merely purely coincidental that Lot was publically jeered for rejecting the vile passions of his day?

So, yes, we understand the trend and where it will end.  And we don't see the rejection of our message as a failure on our part, rather we understand it's just the way of the world and we understand the world also rejected the message of Christ.

So, we'll continue to fight the good fight, so that in the end we will be able to stand in the day of his reappearance.

[King]

you're forgetting that Jesus Christ predicted the moral decay of the last days and used the publically accepted sin of homosexuality in Lot's day as his example:

"As it was in the days of Lot, even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:29-30)

Or do you think it is merely purely coincidental that Lot was publically jeered for rejecting the vile passions of his day?

So, yes, we understand the trend and where it will end.  And we don't see the rejection of our message as a failure on our part, rather we understand it's just the way of the world and we understand the world also rejected the message of Christ.

So, we'll continue to fight the good fight, so that in the end we will be able to stand in the day of his reappearance.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

you're forgetting that Jesus Christ predicted the moral decay of the last days and used the publically accepted sin of homosexuality in Lot's day as his example:

"As it was in the days of Lot, even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:29-30)

Or do you think it is merely purely coincidental that Lot was publically jeered for rejecting the vile passions of his day?

So, yes, we understand the trend and where it will end.  And we don't see the rejection of our message as a failure on our part, rather we understand it's just the way of the world and we understand the world also rejected the message of Christ.

So, we'll continue to fight the good fight, so that in the end we will be able to stand in the day of his reappearance.

yes, I know truth is alien to you...but are you questioning the premise that it will become publically acceptable?

[King]

you're forgetting that Jesus Christ predicted the moral decay of the last days and used the publically accepted sin of homosexuality in Lot's day as his example:

"As it was in the days of Lot, even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:29-30)

Or do you think it is merely purely coincidental that Lot was publically jeered for rejecting the vile passions of his day?

So, yes, we understand the trend and where it will end.  And we don't see the rejection of our message as a failure on our part, rather we understand it's just the way of the world and we understand the world also rejected the message of Christ.

So, we'll continue to fight the good fight, so that in the end we will be able to stand in the day of his reappearance.

yes, I know truth is alien to you...but are you questioning the premise that it will become publically acceptable?

Yes.  But we'd also have to have rampant incest and a lack of hospitality in order it to be fully "days of Lot."  I guess that's West Virginia's contribution to the end days.

A big problem with your theory is we have this entire planet.  Even if homosexuality becomes publicly acceptable in the United States, we aren't "in the days of Lot" until it reaches that level in Uganda and Peru and Singapore and every other nook and corner of the planet.   It's not publicly acceptable on Earth and might not be for several more centuries.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yes.  But we'd also have to have rampant incest and a lack of hospitality in order it to be fully "days of Lot."  I guess that's West Virginia's contribution to the end days.

A big problem with your theory is we have this entire planet.  Even if homosexuality becomes publicly acceptable in the United States, we aren't "in the days of Lot" until it reaches that level in Uganda and Peru and Singapore and every other nook and corner of the planet.   It's not publicly acceptable on Earth and might not be for several more centuries.

I agree that it has to be more widespread than just in America (which it already is - just look at what is going on in Europe and South America)....but to say it must be uniform throughout the world is taking the analogy way too far.

But I am not saying we have currently reached the point which is portrayed in the analogy, but we are moving in that direction rather quickly.  And if the prophesy is correct, we will continue to move in that direction.

[TJ in Oregon]

you're forgetting that Jesus Christ predicted the moral decay of the last days and used the publically accepted sin of homosexuality in Lot's day as his example:

So this means we are in “the last days”? We’ll lose all these political battles, be ostracized, and then the world will end? I personally doubt I’ll live to see the end of the world (and I don’t believe in a rapture) but I guess that is a way of looking at it.

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I also am not convinced the passage you mention about Lot means that specifically homosexuality will be the harbinger of the end of the world, rather sin in general. (On a random side note, I am attempting to model salt right not and it’s forming pillars—which isn’t supposed to happen). As King pointed out, the US and Europe are not all of the world and the global south will provide more time, possibly centuries worth of Christianity surviving.

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Ok, I agree with this, though I’m more concerned about Him coming for me upon my death than waiting for a reappearance.

So, basically you’re saying that we will lose this battle politically but not to worry about it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So, basically you’re saying that we will lose this battle politically but not to worry about it.

yeah....as for the doctinal stuff, you probably need to open a thread on the religious board, else I will be infracted.

[Jacobtm]

Social Conservatives can take comfort looking at the Dark Ages in Europe.

Ancient Roman sexuality was far more ''liberal'' in many ways than ours is.

And then the Dark Ages came with Christian Morality, bringing all sorts of wonderful things like Witch Hunts and Feudalism.

[freepcrusher]

well i hope that social conservatism has been effectively killed. That's the reason I am a democrat anyways. I believe in the decriminalization of marijuana, am a pacifist, support reproductive rights (although supporting banning partial birth abortion), and am a deist. 

[Lief 🗽]

Social conservatism by definition can't die. The issues that are "socially conservative" will just change.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Social conservatism by definition can't die. The issues that are "socially conservative" will just change.

well, what exactly comes next after homosexuality and the killing of babies...bestiality and necrophilia?

[Meeker]

Social conservatism by definition can't die. The issues that are "socially conservative" will just change.

well, what exactly comes next...bestiality, necrophilia?

Surely you can see the difference in consensual sexual activity between two adults and sexual activity between an adult and a horse or a dead body.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Social conservatism by definition can't die. The issues that are "socially conservative" will just change.

well, what exactly comes next...bestiality, necrophilia?

Surely you can see the difference in consensual sexual activity between two adults and sexual activity between an adult and a horse or a dead body.

what if the dead person gave his consent before he died...is it then ok in your eyes?

[Meeker]

Social conservatism by definition can't die. The issues that are "socially conservative" will just change.

well, what exactly comes next...bestiality, necrophilia?

Surely you can see the difference in consensual sexual activity between two adults and sexual activity between an adult and a horse or a dead body.

what if the dead person gave his consent before he died...is it then ok in your eyes?

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

[Meeker]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

I meant something like keeping the body around in your home.

[Beet]

Social conservatism in the West is in really bleak shape. The best example is probably that when Michele Bachmann, who occupies a very conservative spot in the GOP primaries, attacks Rick Perry over an HPV vaccine, the main thrust of the attack is over his supposed corruption and mandate, not the merits of the HPV vaccine itself. The fact that even Bachmann couldn't just come out and say "kids shouldn't be vaccinated against HPV because it would just encourage sexual activity" shows that the really Christian conservative positions have practically been pushed off the political spectrum.

Social conservatives, however, can look to Islam for hope. By some accounts the Arab spring is bringing a boost to social conservatism in that part of the world.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

I meant something like keeping the body around in your home.

Please tell me you're Van Der Blub and this isn't a real discussion...

[Meeker]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

I meant something like keeping the body around in your home.

Please tell me you're Van Der Blub and this isn't a real discussion...

You started it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

I meant something like keeping the body around in your home.

Please tell me you're Van Der Blub and this isn't a real discussion...

You started it.

I'm not the one defending necrophilia, Blub

[Meeker]

If it was explicitly in his/her will... and there was no public safety concern... sure.

huh?  what's he gonna do, come back to life and demand his rights?!

I meant something like keeping the body around in your home.

Please tell me you're Van Der Blub and this isn't a real discussion...

You started it.

I'm not the one defending necrophilia, Blub

Neither am I.

[Likely Voter]

It does seem that in the last century the traditional/social conservatives are running out of things to protect us from. They have already lost the battles on alcohol, porn, comic books, violent games/tv/movies, interracial marriage, birth control, sex education, homosexuality as crime, abortion, prayer in schools and even gambling (somewhat).  I agree that marijuana and gay marriage will join the list soon enough.

I think the last lines of defense may be around hard drugs, prostitution and perhaps gambling becoming even more available. And then there are the legal ages and other regulations for all of the above activities (which is how they are fighting abortion now).

[Simfan34]

Aren't anti-porn, game violence really liberal now?