SENATE BILL: Empowering Regions in Elections Amendment (Failed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor: Jbrase

[Napoleon]

The regions should be responsible for counting the presidential votes there and have them cast in the same booth if we wanted to move ahead with this.

[CatoMinor]

I never thought we'd get to one of my bills.

The regions should be responsible for counting the presidential votes there and have them cast in the same booth if we wanted to move ahead with this.

 I think this is a good middle ground between the folks who have an irrational hate for our regions, and the people who want more rights for the regions. I would support all elections except the at-large senators being handled by the regions but I don't thing it would pass.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

The only opposition I have is that I don't think it's fair to have the SoFE have to count 5 different voting methods... I'm not sure how many contested counts you've been around for, and how nasty they can be... but this is my objection to it.... it has nothing to do with Regional rights.

If there can be basic universal standards applied, I might be able to see beyond the potential problems. 

[Napoleon]

I won't vote for this middle ground then. Compromise for the sake of compromise is a recipe for poor public policy. Quite frankly, the middle ground sucks (as it does in almost all cases) and option A (real reform) or option B (status quo) is far preferable to it.

[bgwah]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. The SoFE now has to keep track of five different voting booths, and potentially administer five separate kinds of elections (in addition to the Presidential election)? I won't be voting for this.

[Marokai Backbeat]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. I won't be voting for this.

There is absolutely nothing complicated about this.

Either way, people need to realize one thing: If people want something to change or be more interesting, then by necessity, something has to change and people have to learn something new. If the objection to any change is "too complicated, I don't wanna learn something new!" then we may as well pack it up right now.

The only opposition I have is that I don't think it's fair to have the SoFE have to count 5 different voting methods... I'm not sure how many contested counts you've been around for, and how nasty they can be... but this is my objection to it.... it has nothing to do with Regional rights.

If there can be basic universal standards applied, I might be able to see beyond the potential problems. 

Teddy has said he doesn't mind that, if it came to it. But I don't think there's anything wrong with letting the region themselves handle the election just like they do every other regional office.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Also, just as an aside, I think I can say with some confidence that pretty much the entire Game Reform Committee is a fan of this proposal.

[Fuzzybigfoot]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. The SoFE now has to keep track of five different voting booths, and potentially administer five separate kinds of elections (in addition to the Presidential election)? I won't be voting for this.

Yeah, I agree.  Sorry Jbrase.  And it real life, local/regional/state governments have often manipulated the distribution of voting booths to change election results in favor of certian parties....

[Marokai Backbeat]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. The SoFE now has to keep track of five different voting booths, and potentially administer five separate kinds of elections (in addition to the Presidential election)? I won't be voting for this.

Yeah, I agree.  Sorry Jbrase.  And it real life, local/regional/state governments have often manipulated the distribution of voting booths to change election results in favor of certian parties....

The Amendment explicitly says the elections must remain fair and any new voting system suspected of being undemocratic could easily be challenged in court if it actually got to that point. I don't see how this is a realistic scenario.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

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Sponsor: Jbrase

Honestly, I don't see a safeguard - it's all platitudes

If this were to go ahead - a very strict set of standards need to be listed and met.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The regions should be responsible for counting the presidential votes there and have them cast in the same booth if we wanted to move ahead with this.

Why must they be linked?

[Fuzzybigfoot]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. The SoFE now has to keep track of five different voting booths, and potentially administer five separate kinds of elections (in addition to the Presidential election)? I won't be voting for this.

Yeah, I agree.  Sorry Jbrase.  And it real life, local/regional/state governments have often manipulated the distribution of voting booths to change election results in favor of certian parties....

The Amendment explicitly says the elections must remain fair and any new voting system suspected of being undemocratic could easily be challenged in court if it actually got to that point. I don't see how this is a realistic scenario.

Yes, I know Jbrase has good intentions, but I just don't trust some local governments to stay to the exact wording and not find loopholes. 

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Thinking on it, I do want to have an open-mind on this - but the reasons need to go beyond the 'regional rights' argument... which I think is a bit of a crock..

[Marokai Backbeat]

Thinking on it, I do want to have an open-mind on this - but the reasons need to go beyond the 'regional rights' argument... which I think is a bit of a crock..

You consider yourself a pragmatist at heart, correct?

Look at it, then, this way: We can all agree that elections have been getting a bit more drab and not a lot has changed in Atlasia in a long time. We bleed old members, and have difficulty keeping ahold of new ones. There has been practically no campaigning for most Senate elections lately, and we seem set to repeat that same thing with the next at-large elections.

Alot of the proposals that have come and gone in the last two years have died because they were unable to garner support from both sides. Please, take a look at the Constitutional Convention sub-board just above us. Nothing came out of that because proposals were too far-reaching, (and some people a little too stubborn), to get enough support to pass.

This proposal is designed in some way as a way to bridge the support of Game Reformers, with the regionalists, who have in the past, stood in the way of reform because it was too radical, yet now, they support proposals like these. In terms of getting changes to pass, this is not only a regional rights proposal, but it is also one that is very pragmatic at heart.

Expansion of regional rights is certainly a motive here, but so it making the game more interesting, which this Amendment will certainly do if given a chance. It isn't complicated, it isn't complex. It does one very simple thing: It treats regional Senators as regional offices just like regional legislators and Governors.

Yes, I know Jbrase has good intentions, but I just don't trust some local governments to stay to the exact wording and not find loopholes. 

Perhaps I am too optimistic, I will grant you. But I do believe, as I'm sure Jbrase does, that there are ways to limit the risk, and any unfair voting system that benefits one party over another (which is less of a voting-system thing and more of a qualifications thing) can most definitely be challenged to the Supreme Court.

There must be some way to reduce that risk of abuse that would be acceptable for you to vote Aye. Regions already have the power to change the voting system for their regional offices. They aren't tweaking them to be unfair now, are they?

[CatoMinor]

The only opposition I have is that I don't think it's fair to have the SoFE have to count 5 different voting methods... I'm not sure how many contested counts you've been around for, and how nasty they can be... but this is my objection to it.... it has nothing to do with Regional rights.

If there can be basic universal standards applied, I might be able to see beyond the potential problems. 

No worries, it states in it that the region administers and certifies the results. The only way your fear would happen is if every region in unison forgot to open their voting booth in which case the feds could step in. But even then the regions still do the count so the SoFE only has to worry about The At-Large race and Presidential.

I'd say this is giving the SoFE a lighter load and by no means adding to his duties.

Now that that has been clarified I hope you support this Amendment.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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Sponsor: Jbrase

Honestly, I don't see a safeguard - it's all platitudes

If this were to go ahead - a very strict set of standards need to be listed and met.

While I very much support the concept behind this amendment, I agree that this clause is  vague regarding the standard by which an election is considered democratic.

[bgwah]

I don't see how this will make Atlasia more interesting. Now, it could certainly make it more confusing.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't see how this will make Atlasia more interesting. Now, it could certainly make it more confusing.

It's no more confusing than how regions elect their regional officials already and already have the power to change their voting system for those offices. All this does is put the regional Senate election under that same administration and authority. Pretending this is complicated at all is absurd.

[CatoMinor]

I don't see how this will make Atlasia more interesting. Now, it could certainly make it more confusing.

I don't see how it is confusing. The regions vote for a senator, the election is certified, the winners swear in.

Also, by having the regions run the elections it would likely lead to nice uptick in the number of people who actually show up to region elections.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I don't have a problem with regions running their own senate elections. I always wondered why we voted for our regional senators in a federal election voting booth anyway. Either I'm being short sighted, or I fail to see how things are complicated by this bill. Then again, I have faith in most regional governments that they are not corrupt enough to fudge election results. I also do not understand how they could fudge such numbers. Anyone care to explain?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't have a problem with regions running their own senate elections. I always wondered why we voted for our regional senators in a federal election voting booth anyway. Either I'm being short sighted, or I fail to see how things are complicated by this bill. Then again, I have faith in most regional governments that they are not corrupt enough to fudge election results. I also do not understand how they could fudge such numbers. Anyone care to explain?

If a region were to adopt a secret ballot, then we might have a problem with that.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Is there a way we can limit regions from doing that? Or if we turn the power over to them to run their own elections, we cannot have any strings attached? I agree we can't allow them to adopt a secret ballot because their results will always be scrutinized. I've always wondered what Atlasian elections would be like if votes weren't public, but it's impossible to do on a site like this.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is there a way we can limit regions from doing that? Or if we turn the power over to them to run their own elections, we cannot have any strings attached? I agree we can't allow them to adopt a secret ballot because their results will always be scrutinized. I've always wondered what Atlasian elections would be like if votes weren't public, but it's impossible to do on a site like this.

If this is to pass, we probably are gonna need to limit regions from doing that and probably some other things too.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Tactical decision: Is the glass half full or half empty?

Do we say what can be done or what can't be done.

I think the latter is better:

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