Oslo Bombing and Utøya Shootings

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

I can see the Progress Party in Norway suffering bigtime.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I can see the Progress Party in Norway suffering bigtime.

The question whether it will have any longer lasting impact on the party's rhetorics. Tone it down or you'll be seen as inciting violence?

[Antonio the Sixth]

The Fp will probably suffer in the next cycle, maybe falling at 10% or 15%, but it will most likely recover after a few years and most people won't hold it responsible for the shootings.

[Gustaf]

I thought this Norwegian blogger makes some pretty good points:

http://essays.bearstrong.net/2011/07/26/on-bruce-bawer-and-islam-criticism-after-227/

Opening excerpt below:

"After 9/11, many pundits revealed themselves to be out of touch with their time by the way they misapplied their old pet models to new events.  Often, these models were legacies of the radical left of the 60′s and 70′s, post-colonial and anti-Western frameworks that simply offered no way to comprehend a conflict where the perpetrators were fanatical Muslims, and the victims were Americans.  The most interesting thing you can ask about someone’s worldview is often which decade they formed it in.  These ideas were long past their expiration date.

The new models many of us embraced, ideas that were more in touch with the post-9/11 world, were often right-wing, and often critical of immigration and Islam.  The people who promoted them prided themselves in their honest approach to reality, and their well-adjusted moral compass.

Now, after the terror attacks in Norway on July 22, perpetrated by a fanatical opponent of multiculturalism and the Islamization of Europa, it happens again.  The wheel turns.  We won’t pretend that everything has changed, no more than everything changed on 9/11.  The threat from Islamist terrorism is the same.  The immigration challenges of Europe are the same.

But reality has shifted sufficiently that you cannot mindlessly apply the same old models to the new situation.  And, this time, the pundits who reveal themselves to be most out of touch may well be precisely those right-wing critics of immigration and Islam who took the lead after 9/11."

[Antonio the Sixth]

I've heard the Norwegian justice is considering to pursue him for crimes against Humanity, which would mean a maximum 30 years sentence. I hope they will go on.

[afleitch]

I thought this Norwegian blogger makes some pretty good points:

He does. Indeed, many are already making the same mistake he's trying to point out. Many are focusing on Islam and anti-Muslim prejudice above everything else as his grand motivation which I think is a dangerous post 9/11, Madrid, 7/7 simplification They are not ignoring, but perhaps not appreciating that his victims were not Muslim; his target was the multicultural state and those who he perceived brought this about. Indeed, he seems to have found some common ground with the base aims of Al-Qaeda and the concept of the 'caliphate' and his desire for a 'European' Europe. While everyone should be wary of 'claiming' victimhood, some commentators have regurgitated talking points this week that would make you think he had just opened fire inside a mosque.

Neither does this mean that the next perpetrator (if there is one) would also target young, politically active 'Europeans'; they may target Muslim's directly and so forth. This man will have a chance to explain himself...and in terms of motive we will have to take his word for it when he does.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I checked the White House website.......where is the Statement from Obama about this tragedy, btw?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/07/22/president-obama-our-hearts-go-out-people-norway

Thanks, Ernest.  I checked the Press Releases where it normally would be.....I'll have to peek at the blog more often.

[Middle-aged Europe]

But reality has shifted sufficiently that you cannot mindlessly apply the same old models to the new situation.  And, this time, the pundits who reveal themselves to be most out of touch may well be precisely those right-wing critics of immigration and Islam who took the lead after 9/11."

While there are certainly problems with the integration of (Muslim?) immigrants into European society, the self-proclaimed "Islam critics" in the mold of Geert Wilders, the FPÖ and others were the least likely to actually solve these problems. In fact, they make a realistic, solution-oriented debate much harder.

[Tender Branson]

But reality has shifted sufficiently that you cannot mindlessly apply the same old models to the new situation.  And, this time, the pundits who reveal themselves to be most out of touch may well be precisely those right-wing critics of immigration and Islam who took the lead after 9/11."

While there are certainly problems with the integration of (Muslim?) immigrants into European society, the self-proclaimed "Islam critics" in the mold of Geert Wilders, the FPÖ and others were the least likely to actually solve these problems. In fact, they make a realistic, solution-oriented debate much harder.

Indeed. The FPÖ always likes to say that if they were in power, they would reduce immigration to Austria to record-low levels. And people are believing that, even though it's wrong. In fact, when the FPÖ was in government with the ÖVP between 2000 and 2005, mass immigration to Austria reached its highest point at 50.582 more people immigrating than emigrating. After the ÖVP/FPÖ/BZÖ government was ousted, the immigration balance slowed down to the 20.000-30.000 today.

Here´s a chart so you can see that the FPÖ merely preaches water, but drinks wine instead:

[Gustaf]

Isn't that Schengen plus financial crisis rather than any government policy?

[Tender Branson]

Isn't that Schengen plus financial crisis rather than any government policy?

What do you mean by that ?

There were no border controls in Austria starting in 1997 I think, so Schengen wasn't the reason for the increase between 2000 and 2004.

The economic crisis didn't hit Austria until 2009, in fact we had good economic growth and low unemployment numbers between 2001 and 2009. Only in 2009, economic growth was negative.

And it wasn't the Eastern European Union expanion in 2004 either, because I looked it up and the most immigrants to Austria during that time were not Eastern Europeans, but Germans.

[Gustaf]

Isn't that Schengen plus financial crisis rather than any government policy?

What do you mean by that ?

There were no border controls in Austria starting in 1997 I think, so Schengen wasn't the reason for the increase between 2000 and 2004.

The economic crisis didn't hit Austria until 2009, in fact we had good economic growth and low unemployment numbers between 2001 and 2009. Only in 2009, economic growth was negative.

And it wasn't the Eastern European Union expanion in 2004 either, because I looked it up and the most immigrants to Austria during that time were not Eastern Europeans, but Germans.

Whether it was most immigrants or not makes no difference. The question is of course how much of the increase was other people than Germans.

DId Austria have open borders to the entire world? Anyone from wnywhere who wanted in got in automatically? Or do you mean open borders with countries like Germany?

There is also the general increases in freedom of movement within the EU that has taken place over the last couple of decades.

I'd be more convinced if you could point to some government policies that affected this, rather than a simple correlation.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Does it even matter?

A pure decrease in immigration isn't necessarily a solution, just like an purely numerical increase in immigration is necessarily a cause for any problems.

[Gustaf]

Does it even matter?

A pure decrease in immigration isn't necessarily a solution, just like an purely numerical increase in immigration is necessarily a cause for any problems.

I've claimed no such thing...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

[Tender Branson]

Isn't that Schengen plus financial crisis rather than any government policy?

What do you mean by that ?

There were no border controls in Austria starting in 1997 I think, so Schengen wasn't the reason for the increase between 2000 and 2004.

The economic crisis didn't hit Austria until 2009, in fact we had good economic growth and low unemployment numbers between 2001 and 2009. Only in 2009, economic growth was negative.

And it wasn't the Eastern European Union expanion in 2004 either, because I looked it up and the most immigrants to Austria during that time were not Eastern Europeans, but Germans.

Whether it was most immigrants or not makes no difference. The question is of course how much of the increase was other people than Germans.

DId Austria have open borders to the entire world? Anyone from wnywhere who wanted in got in automatically? Or do you mean open borders with countries like Germany?

There is also the general increases in freedom of movement within the EU that has taken place over the last couple of decades.

I'd be more convinced if you could point to some government policies that affected this, rather than a simple correlation.

It´s very hard to find detailed numbers from the period between 2000 and 2005.

I think I would have to look into the statistical yearbooks of these years to find immigration saldos and changes between the years.

But the fact that the FPÖ was in government during a timespan of record immigration to Austria (especially during peace time and with moderate economic growth) shows that they are unable to enforce their policies that they preach during the campaign.

I mean, it was clear that the SPÖ/ÖVP goverment in the early 90s was unable to do a lot when the Balkan wars took place and many refugees came to Austria. But there was no such thing between 2000 and 2005, when there was another record immigration.

Of course the FPÖ can blame the EU, but why wasn't there higher immigration between 1995 and 2000 or between 2005 and 2008, when the economy was really booming and in need of additional workers ?

The FPÖ likes to blame the Grand Coalition for "mass-immigration", yet the FPÖ sat in government during these peaceful years with the record immigration and did nothing. They can run from it, but they cannot hide from their hypocrisy.

[minionofmidas]

Isn't that Schengen plus financial crisis rather than any government policy?

What do you mean by that ?

There were no border controls in Austria starting in 1997 I think, so Schengen wasn't the reason for the increase between 2000 and 2004.

The economic crisis didn't hit Austria until 2009, in fact we had good economic growth and low unemployment numbers between 2001 and 2009. Only in 2009, economic growth was negative.

And it wasn't the Eastern European Union expanion in 2004 either, because I looked it up and the most immigrants to Austria during that time were not Eastern Europeans, but Germans.

Whether it was most immigrants or not makes no difference. The question is of course how much of the increase was other people than Germans.

DId Austria have open borders to the entire world? Anyone from wnywhere who wanted in got in automatically? Or do you mean open borders with countries like Germany?

There is also the general increases in freedom of movement within the EU that has taken place over the last couple of decades.

Schengen has nothing whatsoever to do with the Common Labour Market. Schengen is about what borders look like. It has nothing to do with where people are allowed to live (legally). The right for EU citizens to work anywhere in the EU (with an optout for EU-15 countries in regards to the newest 12 ) is something else entirely.
As to non-EU citizens, of course they can't. They're third class humans (with some exceptions).
This is elementary stuff. If you don't know it you really oughtn't to think you can take part in discussions of immigration.

But obviously, direct government action has little or no effect on immigration rates, anywhere in the world. Changes in bureaucratic practice and obscure legal paragraphs do, as do economic conditions, wars, etc. Governments quite despair of regulating immigration, all over the world.

[Tender Branson]

Sry, if already posted here - but the French FN politician Jacques Coutela has posted on his Internet site that the terrorist Breivik is a "resistance fighter and an icon for Europe, because he's fighting the Muslim invasion". The MRAP will sue him now for the comments.

http://derstandard.at/1310512197616/Anerkennung-fuer-Breivik-Anzeige-gegen-franzoesischen-Politiker

Maybe a few of the French posters know more about it.

Meanwhile, FPÖ politicians like the Austrian MP Werner Königshofer have put the Norway murders in relation with extremist Muslim attacks around the globe and said that they have happened "thousands of times" so far contrary to the Norway attack.

Some of his facebook friends even called for the execution of Vienna Mayor Michael Häupl and also said that Breivik is a freedom fighter ...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Meanwhile, FPÖ politicians like the Austrian MP Werner Königshofer have put the Norway murders in relation with extremist Muslim attacks around the globe and said that they have happened "thousands of times" so far contrary to the Norway attack.

Sort of like a cut-price Ernst Nolte?

[Lief 🗽]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

Especially because his own 9/12 Project group runs their own Hitler Youth camps: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/camp-tea-party

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

A new low, but not too surprising.  Party youth wings are largely unknown in this country, and the best known is the Hitler Youth, with Komsomol a distant second.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

At least I hope this has caused a massive outrage in the American medias. Otherwise, if he can say such things and be "alright", then that country is even worse off than I thought.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

A new low, but not too surprising.  Party youth wings are largely unknown in this country, and the best known is the Hitler Youth, with Komsomol a distant second.

I suppose organizations like this don't have a lot of members then?

http://www.republicanteens.org/


Ironically, they list Glenn Beck's "Arguing with Idiots" and "Common Sense" on their "Books to Own" page: http://www.republicanteens.org/tar_book_club

[republicanism]

Sort of like a cut-price Ernst Nolte?

I'm afraid no one gets this one ;-)

[TheGlobalizer]

I know it's wrong to even remember that this man exists, but... well... Glenn Beck may actually have sunk to new depths in his quest for publicity.

A new low, but not too surprising.  Party youth wings are largely unknown in this country, and the best known is the Hitler Youth, with Komsomol a distant second.

I have to say, when I first saw the story, noting youth at a left-leaning political camp, I did cock my head to the side a bit.  I look a bit askance at political camps (like I look at religious camps and other adult-subject camps).