Oslo Bombing and Utøya Shootings

[Phony Moderate]

You know what, Al? If you had any solidarity with the Norweigan people, you would not change your signature to the Arbeiterpartei rose. This was an attack of Norway and on civilised values, not an Arbeiterpartei rally.

And who are you?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Who calls himself "Parasite" anyway??

[J. J.]

Who calls himself "Parasite" anyway??

Answers:

A.  Someone very stupid.

B.  Someone very honest.

C.  All of the above.

[Insula Dei]

I was shocked by this of course. Not in the least because of the target the killer chose. I understand these were 13-16 year old kids?

I'm pleasantly surprised (well, pleasantly,...) that people on this forum seem to generally have reacted with a lot of restraint, especially when it wasn't clear yet who the killer was. that said, did a lot of people on here really think this was an Al-Qaeda-like group? My gut feeling immediately was 'Neonazi's'.

[Silent Hunter]

I was confused as to why someone would set off a bomb when people had already left work; that's not Al-Qaeda's way of doing things.

[J. J.]

When the bombing occurred, I though it might have been al Qaeda, but remember, I started the thread prior to the shooting.  After the shooting, I was unsure.  Had it been a Jewish youth camp, I would have thought it.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

I was under the impression, originally, that multiple bombs had gone off, more were about to go off, and that the shooting took place only shortly after (IE 15-45 mins) the bombs.

When I learned that it appeared to be a single bomb, and that the guy was seen in Oslo, and that there was enough time in between to go from Oslo to the Island... To Oslo and BACK to the Island, then I knew for sure.

[The Mikado]

Prior to the shooting spree, when it was just the bombing, I thought it was probably jihadist.  The shooting is so out of character for jihadi violence that I stopped thinking that at that point.  

[Gustaf]

I was shocked by this of course. Not in the least because of the target the killer chose. I understand these were 13-16 year old kids?

I'm pleasantly surprised (well, pleasantly,...) that people on this forum seem to generally have reacted with a lot of restraint, especially when it wasn't clear yet who the killer was. that said, did a lot of people on here really think this was an Al-Qaeda-like group? My gut feeling immediately was 'Neonazi's'.

For quite some time this was just a bombing incident. And bombing incident in Western capitol sort of screams Islamist terrorism. Once the youth camp thing came out the picture obviously changed.

But, yes, we've only really had two people really misbehaving so far - Jfern from the left and now this Parasite-guy.

And I'm not sure what the overall age distribution was - I'm guessing most would be 17-23 but I heard reports there were kids as young as 10 on the island.

I just read a very touching blog post from a girl who was on the island. She called her parents from the island to tell them that she might not make it out of there alive but would try her best. She was praying to God for help. Then the guy caught up with her and the group she was in. They flung themselves on the ground playing dead. Once she dared to move again everyone around her, the girl she was lying on and two people lying on top of her were all dead. She then made it to the beach and swam out where she was picked up by a boat that took her to the shore. Seeing your friends getting killed all around you...I hope these kids will find the strength to move on from all this.

PS: from what I've read it seems like most people swam off the island to get away, though some of them probably drowned. There was apparently a quite massive rescue operation going on from the civilians living around the lake. A couple of German tourists apparently did a massive effort, shuttling a 100 of the youths to safety in their boat.

[Gustaf]

Apparently there was a police officer on the island, who worked extra as a guard there. He was unarmed and has been confirmed as one of the victims.

Here is a link to an English translation of the blog post I mentioned: http://midgetviking.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/hell-on-utoya-an-eyewitness-account/

They have interviewed the father of the murderer. He apparently had had no contact with his son since 1995.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

I will always remember, 9/11, the pictures of people jumping out of the towers to their death.

I think that the mental pictures from the shooting will stick with people for quite a long time to come as well.

[J. J.]

But, yes, we've only really had two people really misbehaving so far - Jfern from the left and now this Parasite-guy.

I shouldn't defend the guy I usually call Jfraud, but I am here.  This was an attack on a socialist political party organization because of its perceived policies.  I can understand his comments and I don't think they were particularly out of line.  Breivik has a different orientation, for lack of a better term, that most on the right, but, regrettably, I'd still call him right wing.

I think most of you know I'm a Freemason, but you may not know that I'm also a Knight Templar (the Masonic Order).  I'm appalled that Breivik was a Freemason (he was suspended immediately on his identification) and used the symbolism of the Templars in his perverted message.  I've actually spoken in masonic bodies on the development of Freemasonry in the Islamic world and how, historically, there were numerous Masons that happened to be Muslim.  We are not like that!  It's suppose to be the "Brotherhood of man under the Fatherhood of God!"

Still, it is scary to see parallels.  This morning, I felt like a good, loyal, but not anti-Semitic, German who walked into the street the morning after Kristallnacht, or a good, loyal Muslim American on the afternoon of 9/11/01.

Yes, JFern, for once I sort of agree.  Just don't blame all us for this monster.

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Thank God.

[Lief 🗽]

Breivik has admitted to killing people and acting alone, though he denies that he is guilty of anything criminal.

As for jfern, he hasn't said anything wrong. For Gustaf, it's important that the right and left are both always wrong, so that he can feel good about himself in the "center." It's pretty clear that this was a politically motivated attack, against the left-wing Prime Minister and young supporters of the left-wing party.

[rob in cal]

Conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this one.  We have Breivik's free masonry connection, and also in his manifesto, assuming it is his, it is apparently very pro-Zionist. He speaks of solidarity with Zionist brothers etc., and this was at least one driving force for his anti-islamic views.
   It does seem that he was primarily against non-white moslems, and I wonder if he ever explicitly spoke out against non-whites in general?  I do believe that most far right, racist terrorist attacks by white groups usually target non-whites directly,  and don't go after 16 year old blond girls as a way to strike a blow against multi-culturalism, even if the girl in question had a leftist parent.  
   Down the road it will also be intresting if the debate about the death penalty or longer sentences for murders in Norway gets started.  But, could it be applied retroactively.  I for one hope so.

[J. J.]

Conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this one.  We have Breivik's free masonry connection, and also in his manifesto, assuming it is his, it is apparently very pro-Zionist. He speaks of solidarity with Zionist brothers etc., and this was at least one driving force for his anti-islamic views.
   It does seem that he was primarily against non-white moslems, and I wonder if he ever explicitly spoke out against non-whites in general?  I do believe that most far right, racist terrorist attacks by white groups usually target non-whites directly,  and don't go after 16 year old blond girls as a way to strike a blow against multi-culturalism, even if the girl in question had a leftist parent.  
   Down the road it will also be intresting if the debate about the death penalty or longer sentences for murders in Norway gets started.  But, could it be applied retroactively.  I for one hope so.

On the contrary, his "Order of the Temple" is open to anyone of any race, according to the "manifesto."  He wasn't racist, just incredibly anti-Muslim.

Article 97 of the Norwegian Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws, in criminal cases.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law#Norway

In 2032, Breivik gets out of jail.    Maybe they drop him off in Iran.

[ag]

Does Norwegian constitution allow extradition of Norwegian citizens? If any of the dead turn out to be foreigners (there were representatives of the sister parties on the island, apparently), it could be argued that in 2032 he could be extradited to their home countries to face trial for their murder.

[Meeker]

Why can't they put him on trial for 90+ counts of murder?

[J. J.]

Does Norwegian constitution allow extradition of Norwegian citizens? If any of the dead turn out to be foreigners (there were representatives of the sister parties on the island, apparently), it could be argued that in 2032 he could be extradited to their home countries to face trial for their murder.

No.  http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/standardsetting/pc-oc/Country_information1_en_files/Norway%20Extradition.pdf

[J. J.]

Why can't they put him on trial for 90+ counts of murder?

It looks like maximum time that someone can be held is 21 years.  The maximum for 1 or 92 is a total of 21 years.

Breivik will be 53.  He could live another 15 years in relatively good health, and capable of doing this again.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Breivik will be 53.  He could live another 15 years in relatively good health, and capable of doing this again.

Unless someone uses the Pee Wee Gaskins gambit on Breivik.

[patrick1]

Police have said that Breivik actually had a lot of ammunition on him when he surrendered.

Yeah, earlier reports said he was out of ammo or at least that his weapon was.  Then it looks like the scum pretty much surrendered at the first sign of resistance. This (and his 1500 pg screed) tells me that he wants the limelight and discuss what he has done.   So do you deny him his platform or let him speak and expose the evil of his views?

[Foucaulf]

It looks like maximum time that someone can be held is 21 years.  The maximum for 1 or 92 is a total of 21 years.

Breivik will be 53.  He could live another 15 years in relatively good health, and capable of doing this again.

Is it not courageous for the Norwegians to continue their trust in the rule of law after the crime? Say what you will, but the people have accepted that a life sentence is counterproductive, and that rehabilitation always remain a possibility. Call it folly if you want, but you're not the ones who decide. 21 years is enough time for many things to happen.

The more imminent danger is someone who buys into Breivik's reasoning and perpetrating a similar crime, whether in Norway or abroad. While the information age might have made the possibility of terrorism easier, it has decreased response time; if such events happen again, we need to get the information out to the public and the higher-ups.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's also worth remembering that people that commit especially horrific crimes tend not to have an especially nice time inside, no matter how humane the prison regime is. And when he gets out, who knows, you know. There's an argument that really long prison sentences (whether formal or via permanent psychiatric 'treatment') can end up being as much to do with the protection of the criminal from society as the other way round. But that's a long way off.

[J. J.]

Is it not courageous for the Norwegians to continue their trust in the rule of law after the crime? Say what you will, but the people have accepted that a life sentence is counterproductive, and that rehabilitation always remain a possibility. Call it folly if you want, but you're not the ones who decide. 21 years is enough time for many things to happen.

I call it ultimately dangerous.  If the Norwegians are willing to live with that danger, fine.  If it happens again, don't complain about it.  Bury the dead and say, "This is the price that is paid for the possibility of rehabilitation."  Breivik knew the cost to him of his actions, and was willing to pay it.  So long as the Norwegians know the potential price of their action, and are willing to pay it, I don't have a problem with it.

There is, of course, a middle course.  Breivik, even with a life sentence, could be paroled.  That is an option the Norwegians denied themselves.

They could amend the constitution perhaps.

[/quote]

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The unmovable ceiling of 21 years is what I find so surprising, I know many European countries don't have life sentences and some have kind of low ceilings for sentences, but those sentences can be piled on. For example I don't think Germany gives a higher sentence than 15 years for any crime, but in this case he could receive 15 years for each crime and a sentence of over a thousand years which would certainly qualify as life. I remember also reading ETA terrorists in Spain who were sentenced similarly.