Europe and "white guilt"

[Keystone Phil]

Since a certain troll had the nerve to take my white guilt comment way too seriously, we can continue the discussion here. It isn't trolling, Kal, when others are seriously engaged in a discussion on the topic and you don't.

To respond to Gustaf's point: if the Czechs were faced with the question, "do you support the election of Barack Obama in the United States?" before all of this missile defense stuff, would they not have overwhelmingly supported him? I'm still not convinced that he wouldn't come out way ahead in a poll after the missile defense.

Now your response elsewhere led me to believe that your encounters with Czechs in the past had you believing that they have serious feelings of "white pride." If these Eastern Europeans are "shockingly racist," how is all of this not hypocritical? Maybe white guilt wasn't the best label to use for the Czechs but if they are so racist, they obviously wouldn't want to see Obama elected as President of their country. They shouldn't overwhelmingly support Obama's election elsewhere if that's the case even if they do agree with him on other matters.

I think Gustaf's counter argument to px was solid though.

[Gustaf]

You seem to be assuming that Czechs have a certain view of Obama. I'm not sure where this comes from. I'm not under the impression that Eastern Europe in general puts much emphasis on being politically correct. I should note that the Czech Republic is the least Eastern of Eastern European countries, so it might be more true there than elsewhere, but still.

[Lief 🗽]

I don't know that the Czechs would have supported Obama that much more strongly than they did Kerry, and even if they did, there are plenty of reasons besides race to support Obama but not support Kerry.

[Insula Dei]

Dude, all of Europe would have supported both Kerry and Obama, and if they supported Obama more, that had a lot to do with him being more charismatic. Most of Europe would also have favoured putting Bush up for trial and hanging him like Saddam. I wouldn't be too surprised if McCain actually did slightly better than Bush 2004 in many circles, not beng the war criminal Bush.

[Keystone Phil]

there are plenty of reasons besides race to support Obama but not support Kerry.

But my point is that if they are as "shockingly racist" as Gustaf says, there's some element of hypocrisy in supporting Obama even if it is for other reasons. "Shockingly racist" people would never elect him as President or want to see him head a government as Prime Minister of their country but having him as President over there is fine. At the very least, it's brutally condescending.

[Insula Dei]

there are plenty of reasons besides race to support Obama but not support Kerry.

But my point is that if they are as "shockingly racist" as Gustaf says, there's some element of hypocrisy in supporting Obama even if it is for other reasons. "Shockingly racist" people would never elect him as President or want to see him head a government as Prime Minister of their country but having him as President over there is fine. At the very least, it's brutally condescending.

You do know that what you're saying now is basically: 'They wouldn't have a black man for president, so why should we?"

[Middle-aged Europe]

I doubt that Obama would manage to get elected in an European country right now. For starters, he hasn't closed Guantanamo. And he's persecuting WikiLeaks of course. However, if given the choice between only him and any generic Republican, he'd win by a wide margin.

His minority status could constitute a problem in certain countries, like the aforementioned Eastern European example. Not so much in Western/Northern Europe though (as was recently discussed in the German state election thread, there's a small window for electing a certain Chancellor of Turkish descent in 2013 ).

[Franzl]

The funny thing is how often I heard (even just weeks before the 2008 election) Europeans (Germans mainly) go on about how they'd be surprised if America really elected a black man.

The hypocrisy is somewhat amusing

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Since a certain troll had the nerve to take my white guilt comment way too seriously, we can continue the discussion here. It isn't trolling, Kal, when others are seriously engaged in a discussion on the topic and you don't.

Fine, so now, here we are, a thread that is dedicated to the topic. Stick with that.

If someone would start to pollute thread about, let's say, your boycrush Santorum, with totally off-topic, let's say again, discussion about legalization of besitality, wouldn't that be an mindless, annoying trolling?

Since I'm not interested in trolls, welcome to my iggy list

[Leftbehind]

Believe it or not, there's actually a poll been done on this;

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[TheGlobalizer]

I think it's a bit of a strange notion, as I don't think most people of color in Europe are enfranchised enough on a national level to make an impact politically.  Maybe in the UK, but beyond that, I have a hard time conceptualizing a European Obama.

Is there even one person in this category that could be seen as being in the political "pipeline" in a European country?

I don't think it's a big surprise that Europeans get wobbly knees thinking about a Democrat US president, it's part of the schtick over there these days.

[Lief 🗽]

Less "shtick" than the fact that the Republicans would be a far-right fringe party in most European countries.

[Insula Dei]

I think it's a bit of a strange notion, as I don't think most people of color in Europe are enfranchised enough on a national level to make an impact politically.  Maybe in the UK, but beyond that, I have a hard time conceptualizing a European Obama.

Is there even one person in this category that could be seen as being in the political "pipeline" in a European country?

I don't think it's a big surprise that Europeans get wobbly knees thinking about a Democrat US president, it's part of the schtick over there these days.

Belgium's next Prime Minister migth very well be a gay Italian immigrant. I do consider that to be sort of an out-sider.

[TheGlobalizer]

Less "shtick" than the fact that the Republicans would be a far-right fringe party in most European countries.

A little of both, IMO.  There always seems to be a bit of a creepy "ugly girl [hearts] frat guy" vibe to the US Dem love.

[The Mikado]

TBH, I think the truest sign of a fully accepting, tolerant country is when there's a candidate from a formerly despised minority group that you staunchly disagree with and can openly hate without it being related to their race or whatever.  The way Germans hate on Guido Westerwelle with it being completely unrelated to his gayness is, I think, a sign of true tolerance.  Judging people as horrible, awful people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character is the true test of the 21st century.

[CitizenX]

Since a certain troll had the nerve to take my white guilt comment way too seriously, we can continue the discussion here. It isn't trolling, Kal, when others are seriously engaged in a discussion on the topic and you don't.

To respond to Gustaf's point: if the Czechs were faced with the question, "do you support the election of Barack Obama in the United States?" before all of this missile defense stuff, would they not have overwhelmingly supported him? I'm still not convinced that he wouldn't come out way ahead in a poll after the missile defense.

Now your response elsewhere led me to believe that your encounters with Czechs in the past had you believing that they have serious feelings of "white pride." If these Eastern Europeans are "shockingly racist," how is all of this not hypocritical? Maybe white guilt wasn't the best label to use for the Czechs but if they are so racist, they obviously wouldn't want to see Obama elected as President of their country. They shouldn't overwhelmingly support Obama's election elsewhere if that's the case even if they do agree with him on other matters.

I think Gustaf's counter argument to px was solid though.

Well I think Obama polls well around the world because he is a rock star.  He also polls well because he presented himself as the complete opposite of W Bush.  And I think some of the appeal is that he is black.  I don't think he could have beat Hillary Clinton if he wasn't black.  I also don't think Hillary Clinton would have been as popular as she is if her last name wasn't Clinton and she wasn't a woman.  And obvoiusly W wouldn't have been president if he wasn't a white male named Bush.

Obama was something new.  He was something different.  He was the first credible black presidential candidate in my lifetime.  Anyone that has seen the poster of the American presidents hanging in a classroom knew there was something terribly wrong.

Obama was proof to people that eventually everything was going to be okay.  It was proof that even though the world isn't perfect given the choice the majority of us would do the right thing when it mattered.

[Leftbehind]

I think it's a bit of a strange notion, as I don't think most people of color in Europe are enfranchised enough on a national level to make an impact politically.  Maybe in the UK, but beyond that, I have a hard time conceptualizing a European Obama.

Is there even one person in this category that could be seen as being in the political "pipeline" in a European country?

Chuka Umunna seems to be never-endingly compared to Obama in our press. I may be misunderstanding you, but I doubt any possible minority would need to rely on his minority's vote to get elected?

[TheGlobalizer]

Chuka Umunna seems to be never-endingly compared to Obama in our press. I may be misunderstanding you, but I doubt any possible minority would need to rely on his minority's vote to get elected?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  I think a minority candidate would probably have to rely, in part, on strong support by his (and other) minority group.  Of course, the nature of being a minority means that the support will have to cross over to the majority group(s).

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Believe it or not, there's actually a poll been done on this;

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LOL Milliband

Yeah I believe Obama's popularity in Europe has a lot more to do with his rock-star imidge, his charisma and him not being W Bush, than his skin colour... or policies for that matter. I don't think most actually know what   

[Keystone Phil]

Since I'm not interested in trolls, welcome to my iggy list

I think this kid is actually mentally challenged.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Since I'm not interested in trolls, welcome to my iggy list

I think this kid is actually mentally challenged.

He just smokes a lot of pipe

[Insula Dei]

Believe it or not, there's actually a poll been done on this;

You must be logged in to read this quote.

LOL Milliband

Yeah I believe Obama's popularity in Europe has a lot more to do with his rock-star imidge, his charisma and him not being W Bush, than his skin colour... or policies for that matter. I don't think most actually know what   

Presumably those 34% for Obama aren't coming from Cameron.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Does Sarkozy count as a "minority candidate"?

Or is this limited to politicians of non-European (and/or non-Christian) descent?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What a lot of Americans don't realise is that there's a particular idea (ideal even) of America as it 'ought to be' that was near universal in 'Western' Europe until Vietnam. And that a lot of people would still like to believe it; that's one of the main reasons for the appeal of Obama (or really the idea of Obama) to a lot of people.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Wasn't there a poll done in Canada too that showed Obama would beat Harper?

Less "shtick" than the fact that the Republicans would be a far-right fringe party in most European countries.

Sadly Republican-esque parties have been far too successful in Europe lately (Front Nationale, Party for Freedom, Freedom Party of Austria, [kind of Orwellian how these parties love "freedom" in their names], Vlaams Belang), not to mention the Swiss People's Party who basically are the Republicans.