Scottish Independence

[Joe Republic]

It seems to me that the nations comprising the UK are more or less the same deal as the states comprising the US.  Obvious exceptions include their more anachronistic evolution of government and relationship with each other, and that they call themselves 'nations' and 'countries', and we call ours 'states'.  Otherwise, it all seems pretty similar to me.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yeah, seems that way to me too. I don't know if Phil supports Quebec independence, but Quebec is far more different from the rest of Canada than the UK nations are from each other.

[Keystone Phil]

Yeah, seems that way to me too. I don't know if Phil supports Quebec independence, but Quebec is far more different from the rest of Canada than the UK nations are from each other.

Fine by me. It would give me a France, Jr. to dislike on my own continent!

[Platypus]

All of the Americans will vote 'yes' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of Romance. Most of the British posters will vote 'no' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of bleakness and Irn Bru.

What is you're Australian and vote no because you like the idea of the English having to put up with the Scots determining their government?

[afleitch]

All of the Americans will vote 'yes' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of Romance. Most of the British posters will vote 'no' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of bleakness and Irn Bru.

What is you're Australian and vote no because you like the idea of the English having to put up with the Scots determining their government?

That means you're a masochist

[TheGlobalizer]

Seriously, Phil, can you say that Sardinia is a natural part of Italy?

1.  The Kingdom of Sardinia was the first kingdom in the process of unification of Italy.  The first king of unified Italy was from the Kingdom of Sardinia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Emmanuel_II

2.  My girlfriend is from Sardinia and I've visited.  Culturally, it is virtually indistinguishable from Rome, with a slower pace and some regional pride and cultural heritage (typical of Italian regions).  The shared history goes back thousands of years to pre-Roman times.  There are some strong non-Italian influences (Catalan, north African) but the same is true for northern Italy to an even greater degree.

I'd actually argue it is a more natural fit in Italy than Scotland is in the UK, but that's just me.

[minionofmidas]

Sardinia was a pointless, random, artificial outlying possession of that country too - more so than within united Italy, actually (certainly a much better fit than Corse with France!) Which is why (though that was its official name, as the title of King was attached to Sardinia) no one in their right mind ever calls that country anything but Piemont or Piemont-Savoy.

But the Kingdom of Sicily/Naples has older borders than Scotland and probably, with hindsight, ought never to have been united with Italy in the first place (the ancient Kingdom of Italy including, of course, only northern and central Italy.)

As to Wales, all of England is just Welsh Irredenta.

[TheGlobalizer]

Sardinia was a pointless, random, artificial outlying possession of that country too - more so than within united Italy, actually (certainly a much better fit than Corse with France!) Which is why (though that was its official name, as the title of King was attached to Sardinia) no one in their right mind ever calls that country anything but Piemont or Piemont-Savoy.

Sardinia was not a bolt-on possession -- the Kingdom's capital was in Cagliari before it moved to Turin.  I'll grant the greater continental cultural connectivity by way of the Savoy relationships but I'm not sure that's the entire analysis, particularly given more dramatic examples in northern Italy (German-speaking areas and the like).

Sardinia's status as an autonomous region within Italy is entirely appropriate.  For it to be considered more naturally separate would imply that most modern nations should be broken up.

[minionofmidas]

Sardinia was a pointless, random, artificial outlying possession of that country too - more so than within united Italy, actually (certainly a much better fit than Corse with France!) Which is why (though that was its official name, as the title of King was attached to Sardinia) no one in their right mind ever calls that country anything but Piemont or Piemont-Savoy.

Sardinia was not a bolt-on possession -- the Kingdom's capital was in Cagliari before it moved to Turin.  

The Kingdom of Sardinia's capital was in Cagliari when it was an outlying autonomous possession of Aragon and in Turin when Sardinia was still an outlying autonomous possession of a state that, confusingly, was officially styled the Kingdom of Sardinia and whose capital was Turin just as it had been when it was not yet styled the Kingdom of Sardinia. Though noone ever called it that except in a formal context. The wiki articles "Kingdom of Sardinia" and "Piedmont-Sardinia" (which is a legitimate replacement for Piedmont or Piedmont-Savoy, though uncommon) are just titlecruft-infected. You won't find any Italian history book pretending that Italy was united by Cavour and Sardinia, it's always Piedmont.

[Insula Dei]

within Italy is entirely appropriate.  For it to be considered more naturally separate would imply that most modern nations should be broken up.

As was being advocated by certain posters.

[Mechaman]

If Scots want it, yes. If they don't, no. This is my principle for any independence.

[TheGlobalizer]

within Italy is entirely appropriate.  For it to be considered more naturally separate would imply that most modern nations should be broken up.

As was being advocated by certain posters.

I like the devolution / confederation model.  States within states within states.  Sardinia is autonomous yet within the greater Italian sphere, which is within the greater European sphere.  Nifty.

I just lol when people say Sardinia isn't naturally part of Italy -- whether it was originally is debatable (though it still was within the Italian sphere regardless) but that's not really a salient point in 2011.  Sardinia is basically mainland Italy + more sheep + nuraghi.

[minionofmidas]

In other words, you like the Welsh or current Scottish situation. (And yes, the right thing for Sardinia too. Though a bit more autonomy wouldn't hurt, I think.)

[Keystone Phil]

(And yes, the right thing for Sardinia too. Though a bit more autonomy wouldn't hurt, I think.)

You people will do anything to try to undermine The Beautiful Place. Disgusting.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The cultural and historical reasons for both examples aside,

Well that's a pretty big factor in discussions on subjects like this. Massive, actually.

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The correct word probably isn't country, so much as nation. An important distinction that explains quite a bit on its own, no? I dislike generalising about this subject, but its unavoidable if giving a summary. Scotland, Wales and Ireland were all outside the English state at the time in which it was formed and so when they were all (in their own different ways) incorporated into the British state, they were not incorporated as part of England because (of course) there were not part of England; in all cases there was a lengthy period (centuries in the case of Wales and Ireland) between their conquest by the English state and their formal incorporation. It's also worth noting that the two parts of England that were essentially only semi-incorporated until comparatively recently (Durham and Cornwall) have unusually strong regional identities.

That's the first part dealt with. Then there's the issue of identity; how is it possible to have what you call a 'union of nations under another national umbrella'. The key point here is that all four nations were unified (albeit in a rather ramshackle way) as early as 1603; a long time before the development of modern varieties of nationalism.
Where things get a little more complicated is that when Scotland was formally incorporated in 1707 things were different, something even more true when the colony of Ireland was incorporated in 1801. So in both of these nations there were attempts (locally led, it must be remembered) to impose a new British identity after unification (spectacularly successful in the case of the Ulster Protestants and fairly successful - though not lasting - in Scotland). There was never any attempt to do that in Wales (a remote backwater until the Industrial Revolution, without a large city until the middle of the nineteenth century, and with its own language and distinct religious traditions) or in the case of the Catholic majority in Ireland (who weren't even eighth class citizens until Catholic Emancipation), while in England 'British' identity was effectively just English identity given a new word (and even that didn't really catch on until the twentieth century).

[minionofmidas]

(And yes, the right thing for Sardinia too. Though a bit more autonomy wouldn't hurt, I think.)

You people will do anything to try to undermine The Beautiful Place. Disgusting.

No, I want to save the beautiful place by getting the Mezzogiorno and Padania to secede from it! (The beautiful place is Toscany and Umbria, of course - the Emilia and Marche are not nearly as beautiful, but they can stay in. Rome has different politics, but is very much a beautiful place too and can stay as well.)

[Keystone Phil]

The cultural and historical reasons for both examples aside,

Well that's a pretty big factor in discussions on subjects like this. Massive, actually.

I understand that but the fact of the matter is that one subject contains areas distinguished as "countries" and the other doesn't. Also, one subject contains a sizable group of people that seriously want independence and the other doesn't. When Italy is made up of areas that are "countries" and when a sizable group of people seriously want independence, we'll discuss it.

The fact of the matter is that as much as Italians may whine about the other geographical and cultural ends of the country, the movement to secede isn't serious. Even at its height in the area most receptive to secessionist sentiments (the north), secession has been a minority opinion. So even if you could appropriately relate the differences in parts of Italy to the differences between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, the desire serious desire to break away has to be present. That's a pretty big - massive, actually - reason why I can get away with calling for secession in one area but not another. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I understand that but the fact of the matter is that one subject contains areas distinguished as "countries" and the other doesn't.

Nomenclature is not a substitute for argument.

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What is the definition of 'seriously' wanting independence? How many people must have such views in order for it to count, more generally?

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Here's the point. Italy was created in the mid 19th century and so by modern forms of nationalism (things that did not exist when the various nations of Britain were unified or incorporated). So an aggressive form of Italian nationalism (initially the creed of a tiny minority) was imposed on the whole peninsula (and attached islands) in order to create the nation of Italy desired by Italian nationalists. Had Britain been unified at the same point, then you'd have seen a very similar process. What this means, though, is that it is absurd to think of the UK as being an artificial entity, while also viewing Italy is 'natural'. That argument is simply wrong and can be shown to be so.

Which, of course, does not mean that you can't support keeping Italy united while breaking up Britain, it just means that you can't use that specific argument.

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Separatism remains a minority opinion in Scotland as well, fwiw.

[TheGlobalizer]

In other words, you like the Welsh or current Scottish situation. (And yes, the right thing for Sardinia too. Though a bit more autonomy wouldn't hurt, I think.)

Yes, and yes.  Most Sardinians would favor a bit more autonomy, but the Sardinian parties don't do particularly well or particularly stand out from the context of the PD/PdL choice.

[Keystone Phil]

What is the definition of 'seriously' wanting independence? How many people must have such views in order for it to count, more generally?

Oh, you know, more than 25-30%.

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Maybe they were just as artificial at the time but the sentiments in Scotland and Northern Ireland seem to point to the United Kingdom being more artificial. When a sizable amount of people within an area of the Italian peninsula persistently call for independence, we can make the comparison to the United Kingdom.

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Fair enough but the most recent poll I found showed it at 37%. That's still an impressive showing.

[Free Palestine]

If that's what they want, yes.