Sexual abuse education for kindergartners?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

In Kindergarten, I was learning about shapes and numbers and the alphabet. I didn't know what "sex" was and my interpretation of "penis" was "wee-wee." So no, children should not be educated about sex or sexual abuse until at least 6th or 7th grade when hormones begin to race and teens become sexually curious and (unfortunately) sexually active.

See, I was educated about molestation early on, but to me, it was just people hugging you, etc. I didnt know it meant Sexual molestation (Or touching, as I knew it) to 4th grade. Sex Education (not abuse education) should come in 7th grade, or so.

[Pheurton Skeurto]

In Kindergarten, I was learning about shapes and numbers and the alphabet. I didn't know what "sex" was and my interpretation of "penis" was "wee-wee." So no, children should not be educated about sex or sexual abuse until at least 6th or 7th grade when hormones begin to race and teens become sexually curious and (unfortunately) sexually active.

See, I was educated about molestation early on, but to me, it was just people hugging you, etc. I didnt know it meant Sexual molestation (Or touching, as I knew it) to 4th grade. Sex Education (not abuse education) should come in 7th grade, or so.

Well, I meant other than "good touch vs. bad touch" kindergarteners don't need to know.

[angus]

Well, tomorrow's the day.  Most of my neighbors either didn't read the email ("Take charge of your body?  Um, is that like the nutrition or health unit thingy they're doing?"), or they did read it and they think it's odd that they're exposing the children to this sort of thing.  But they're pretty resigned to the fact that it'll happen so they may as well participate and get used to it.

Today is bring your favorite stuffed animal to school day.  Apparently in art class they're going to use watercolors to paint portraits of them.  My son brought Curious George.  He always sleeps with Curious George and carries him around in the morning.  Sometimes he even wants to set a place for Curious George at the table.  This morning at breakfast he tried to feed him one of his fish sticks and got tartar sauce on him, which I had to clean up so he could take him to school.  That really tested my patience.

I think tomorrow morning we'll leave George upstairs and I'll talk to him over breakfast.  Maybe I'll make sausages.  He'll probably never think about sausages the same way again, so it'll be good to have that tomorrow.  I'll tell him that a visitor is coming and he must be on his best behavior and that she's going to talk about not taking rides with strangers, and some other information about how sometimes mean people try to engage in inappropriate behavior with children, but that Mama and Daddy won't let that happen, so don't worry too much about it.  Just sit quietly and listen and if you have any questions ask us when you get home from school. 

Or, I may keep him home.  Call them and tell them he's a bit under the weather.  I have no meetings tomorrow and it's forecast to be a nice day.  High 60s.  We could go on a bicycle ride.  It's not a library day or a guidance day for them, and the stuff they're doing in math and reading is pretty basic.  He stays ahead of it. 

Just haven't decided yet.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Well, tomorrow's the day.  Most of my neighbors either didn't read the email ("Take charge of your body?  Um, is that like the nutrition or health unit thingy they're doing?"), or they did read it and they think it's odd that they're exposing the children to this sort of thing.  But they're pretty resigned to the fact that it'll happen so they may as well participate and get used to it.

Today is bring your favorite stuffed animal to school day.  Apparently in art class they're going to use watercolors to paint portraits of them.  My son brought Curious George.  He always sleeps with Curious George and carries him around in the morning.  Sometimes he even wants to set a place for Curious George at the table.  This morning at breakfast he tried to feed him one of his fish sticks and got tartar sauce on him, which I had to clean up so he could take him to school.  That really tested my patience.

I think tomorrow morning we'll leave George upstairs and I'll talk to him over breakfast.  Maybe I'll make sausages.  He'll probably never think about sausages the same way again, so it'll be good to have that tomorrow.  I'll tell him that a visitor is coming and he must be on his best behavior and that she's going to talk about not taking rides with strangers, and some other information about how sometimes mean people try to engage in inappropriate behavior with children, but that Mama and Daddy won't let that happen, so don't worry too much about it.  Just sit quietly and listen and if you have any questions ask us when you get home from school.  

Or, I may keep him home.  Call them and tell them he's a bit under the weather.  I have no meetings tomorrow and it's forecast to be a nice day.  High 60s.  We could go on a bicycle ride.  It's not a library day or a guidance day for them, and the stuff they're doing in math and reading is pretty basic.  He stays ahead of it.  

Just haven't decided yet.

Well this curious George wants to know what happens, so keep us posted.......the bike ride sounds like a cool idea.  Fish sticks for breakfast?  I'd wean him into weed and coffee before that

[angus]

Not too bad this morning.  I decided to play along.  I thought I'd feel like a farmer in Lower Saxony in 1934, sending my boy off to school, but knowing what they're teaching him doesn't seem quite right.  That the whole hype and hysteria gripping the nation doesn't seem quite right.  Yet, I want to be a good nationalist and a good father, and the state has been fixing the roads and providing good jobs, so maybe I should just do what they say I should do.

But really, it wasn't so bad.  We went with Little Smokies, boiled.  And I gave him some KC-style barbeque sauce for dipping them.  And a couple of sesame-seed breadsticks.  Breakfast of champions.

Over breakfast I tried to convey the importance of being quiet while the visitor speaks.  She'll talk to them about strangers.  And how some of them are mean and bad.  And that we should never take rides with strangers.  According to his teacher, they will start with that.  But also they'll show you a picture of a boy and a girl outfitted in swimwear, and you'll be asked to think about what's under the swimwear.  Of course, you know there's a penis under there.  And the boy giggled and said, "and a scrotum.  Don't forget about the scrotum."  And it pretty much went downhill from there.  He was giggling and not taking it seriously, which will very probably be the case in his class today.  So I just said, sternly, "The bottom line is that you don't touch anyone else's penis and you don't let anyone touch yours!  Are we clear?"  And he said he was, and said he'd try to be still and quiet when the visitor speaks.  

Then we rode our bicycles to his school.  It's only about three blocks away, and my office is only about another mile beyond that.  And it's such a nice day.  I think I might just take off at noon and get out and enjoy the weather.  69 degrees, they're predicting.  We may even get to turn the heater off this week.  Finally.  

Today is early day.  2:15.  I'll be there to pick him up and we'll ride home together, and I'll sing "This old man, he played three, he played knick knack on my knee" and I'll gauge his reaction.  If he says, "He did what?!  Well, somebody needs to call the police" then I'll start to worry.

[Gustaf]

if a parent is actually abusing their child, obviously they'll opt out.

This seems likely.

It's not even sex ed, it's about sexual abuse.

This is accurate.

Those two observations further support the case that this program is a waste of taxpayer money and valuable class time.  First, those most likely to need the counseling are the least likely to receive it, for the logistical reasons you mention.  Second, it's not even the sort of useful how-to-put-a-condom-on-a-banana or how to avoid STD and pregnancy that would be useful.  The actual sex-ed, which I got in the 9th grade, might be useful for my son, though not in kindergarten.  (Admittedly, I didn't actually get properly laid till the 10th grade, and even with all the pro-social messages on television, even with all the AIDS scare that existed in the mid-80s, and even with all the instruction in school, I didn't use a rubber.  So, on some level I question even the usefulness of that.  But that's another issue, and it wasn't my goal to go into that issue in this thread.)

I know most parents go over it with their children, but some don't,

Just as some parents allow their children to eat shellfish, some don't.  some parents allow their children to watch television, some don't.  All are prerogatives of the parents, or at least that's my read of how the society functions.  I have never told my son that babies come from storks or anything silly like that.  I've talked to him about how animals evolve and how they go extinct, insomuch as I understand it, and at a level that he can understand it.  And I have tried to explain, more or less, sexual reproduction using flowers as tangible examples, accessible to someone his age, and even taking him into the field and showing him how the hapless bees frantically hump the clever orchids that they think are female bees, thereby doing most of the hard work.  He knows Mama and Daddy did something physical to make him, and he understands that mama has an egg and daddy has a seed.  (We prefer the terms egg and seed at this level.)  But the specifics can wait a few years. 

napping?

As an aside, it was to our great relief that we learned that neither the state of Iowa nor Cedar Falls Public Schools requires naps in kindergarten.  We fretted over that, since my son hates naps.  He started at a Montessori system preschool at the age of 3, and they required naps, and it was always traumatic for him.  We were happy to learn that his public kindergarten doesn't do that.

I've never done it, or maybe I don't remember.

Neither have I.  Then again, I was never an altar boy, so I really didn't need the training. 

I did Montessori from the age of 4 until I turned 16. But I can't recall ever being forced to take a nap during that time.

[angus]

Naps are strange.  In public kindergarten, we had to take naps.  Maybe it's changed, or maybe Iowa kindergartens never did naps.  I know I never liked them either.  

With my son, it was particularly rough.  My wife took off work once she recognized that she was pregnant.  She's a chemist and didn't want to be around solvents or anything.  Actually, she really went whole-hog in pre-natal and post-natal care.  Reading books and modifying her diet and such.  Anyway, we both agreed that it was a good idea for her not to go to work till he was fully toilet-trained and fully weaned.  So he was a spoiled titty-baby till he was three.  I think it was the right thing.  He's healthy and tall.  Tallest, by far, in his class, even though I'm only about 176 centimeters, which is average for an American.  (Short for an Iowa person.)  Good immune system, etc.  But the problem was that he had no particular schedule.  The two of them would eat whenever they were hungry, sleep whenever they were tired, and drink whenever they were thirsty.  There was no such thing as "bedtime."  

We worked very hard to toilet train him, and by the time he was 2 he was pissing like a big boy.  In the toilet.  And wiping his own ass.  He wore his last diaper at about 2 years and six months, and only then because we were taking a long cross-country drive and didn't want to chance it.  So she started looking for work and starting to wean him a bit.  At 2 years, 8 months, she started her current job and he started preschool.  For that first year it was so very traumatic.  Getting him to bed by 9, and getting him up at 8, and getting him to eat, was so difficult.  He'd take a bite, then want to play, not quite understanding that the next meal time may not come for hours.  And, to make matters worse, this particular Montessori school (they're all different, by the way), had an after-lunch nap policy.  

I'm no fan of the Maria Montessori philosophy, by the way.  Never do for the child what the child can do for himself.  I regard it as systematized neglect.  We chose that particular daycare not because it was a Montessori school, but in spite of the fact that it was a Montessori school.  And not because of the price.  It was extremely expensive.  We chose it because it seemed to have good facilities, and focused on education as well as day care.  But he was miserable there.  After the end of the year, when the contract expired, we were happy to take him out.  And he spent summer at home with his Mama.  the following year we put him in an AEA267 facility called Valley Park.  A big state-subsidized pre-school/daycare, with the white trash and the free lunch crowd.  He was much happier there.  They also had a nap policy, but didn't really enforce it.  They let him read during that time, so long as he stayed quiet.  We did that for two years.  Finally, the next year, when he was 5, he started kindergarten.  We'd bought a house in a neighborhood specifically chosen for the local public school, which is a good one.  And it was a great relief to learn that this school doesn't require naps.  After lunch, they go outside.  Snow or shine.  That was strange too, but we bought him snowpants and big boots.  It worked out well.

[angus]

Rough day.  There was some fighting involved.  And a visit to the principal's office.  Obviously we had more important things to talk about than the Take Charge of Your Body program.

Well, by the time we got around to discussing it, I think we were all tired.  Apparently, there was a very old woman named Mrs. Houston.  Or Mrs. Huston.  She talked about the pictures.  From what I could tell, they learned about the Penis, the Vagina, the Breasts, and the Butt Ox.  Daddy, she calls it the Butt Ox.  Lots of laughing and giggling.  Anyway, they watched a video about a cat who had a vary nice, long tail.  It had a lightening flash on it.  But all the other animals, including the boodleheimer and the glockenwart and the Lazypipple wanted to touch it.  Eventually, the cat learned to say, in his "important voice," that he did not like having his tail touched.  No!  Please don't touch my tail anymore, Boodleheimer!  I don't like it when you touch my tail.  It's my private part and I don't want you touching it!

They also learned the importance of reporting.  Reporting stuff to grown-ups.  At the end of it all, they each went out into the hall, individually, and gave one example of reporting.  My son was very proud of himself.  He said that his example was that his sister was playing with sharp scissors.  (?!) 

Now, I'm starting to figure this thing out.  Surely all those elementary ed majors know at least as much about elementary ed as I do.  I have no training, after all, and I figured out that they'd not take it seriously, or get the message.  Now, I understand that they know this.  They're just taking a buckshot approach to intrusion, it seems to me.  They spend some tax dollars.  Maybe no much.  Maybe a little.  They send this old woman around to the schools and have her give her schpiel and show a video of a cat with a long tail, and she talks about the importance of reporting.  Then they ask the kiddies to give one example of reporting something.  And each child walks out into the hall, individually, and reports some incidence of inappropriate behavior.  My son, being somewhat sheltered, and having a good sense of humor and an active imagination, and who longs for a sibling, says something like "my sister plays with sharp scissors."  He's probably considered a miss.  Most of them are misses, I'd imagine.  But once in a while they probably get a hit.  Someone says, "my uncle Ted likes to play neptune.  Neptune is the god of the sea, and he has a big trident that he uses to probe the deep ocean.  It hurts, but he says that I should never tell anyone.  But you said to report it if someone touches my Butt Ox."

So it's like that.  This is what we're reduced to, as a society.  The Iowa state legislature is basically a toned-down, but more authoritative, version of the guys who run MSNBC.  And they're as sadistic as that weirdo who entraps people on that weekend show.  I don't know who's worse, that sadistic bastard who loves to entrap people, or the nasty pederasts he arrests. 

It's a sick, sad world.  Hopefully, my son was too busy fighting and being sent to the principal's office to have any memory of all this sickness.  I gather that he was, and that no harm was done.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

So why was the boy brawling?

[angus]

So why was the boy brawling?

Ah, it was after lunch, and they get to hang out in the gym and roughhouse.  He was on this toy.  sort of an inverted semicircle with seats, and you use it like a see-saw, and he was in the middle, rocking back and forth.  As nearly as I could tell a big boy (2nd grade) came and flipped it on one end and he fell backward, hitting his head.  Apparently he started crying.  Then he starts walking to the teacher, and on his way to the teacher he saw the boy who did it and belted him, repeatedly.  He must have looked like a madman, crying and swinging his fists.  I guess the teacher saw that.  Later, the principal found the other boy.  He just talked to them a long time.  They both had to forego their afternoon recess times and stay in and write something.  That was pretty much the end of it.  But it took me well over an hour to get that story out of him.  Very frustrating.

We had a TV-free night.  No videos, no DVDs, no televesion, etc.  I made him practice his piano for an hour and read a book.  I told him if he doesn't have a good day today there will be no TV tonight either.  This morning he seemed like he was in a good mood as he ate his frozen, breaded chicken breast tenders, heated for two minutes in the microwave.  A strawberry cupcake rounded out the breakfast.  I talked to him briefly about détente.  Hopefully he's not in a protracted war of attrition with this other boy now.  We'll see.  

We bicycled again.  Still cool in the morning, but sunny.  Good day for grilled meat.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Yeah, you have to discourage the brawling and you didn't throw him in solitary which is good, but inside, weren't you proud he stuck up for himself?   Even a lil?  Of course you wouldn't necessarily say - "If it happens again, beat the sh**t out of the lil focker again", but yeah, I'd have a glimmer of a smile inside.  I'm guessing you might have one too.

[angus]

weren't you proud he stuck up for himself?  

This must go unspoken.  You understand.  

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

weren't you proud he stuck up for himself?  

This must go unspoken.  You understand.  

Oh I do.....I think I even said that. 

I think we found a pic of your lil guy:



Go get em, son of angus!!!

[The Mikado]

I got basic sex ed in 4th and a somewhat more advanced version in 9th.  The 4th grade version was "Sperm travel from the testes through the vas deferens out the penis into the vagina, where one lucky sperm will find an egg released from the ovary in the fallopian tube, fertilize it, and it will catch on uterine lining and develop for 9 months.  That's sex, kids."

[angus]

I got basic sex ed in 4th and a somewhat more advanced version in 9th.  The 4th grade version was "Sperm travel from the testes through the vas deferens out the penis into the vagina, where one lucky sperm will find an egg released from the ovary in the fallopian tube, fertilize it, and it will catch on uterine lining and develop for 9 months.  That's sex, kids."

ooh, baby.  you get me so moist when you talk like that.


Anyway, there are apparently no lingering side-effects.  Either from the little contretemps or the Take Charge of Your Body program.  I took off early and did some cycling, and showed up at 3:35 at his teacher's door, and she said he had a good day.  So I let him grill some pork chops with me.  And watch Curious George. 

I'm still gonna make him read a book and practice his music. 

My wife rented "An Inconvenient Truth" and she's planning on having me sit through it with her.  I expect her to call me downstairs any minute.  I guess I won't make him sit through it.  I wouldn't do that to the boy even if he was in trouble.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

I got basic sex ed in 4th and a somewhat more advanced version in 9th.  The 4th grade version was "Sperm travel from the testes through the vas deferens out the penis into the vagina, where one lucky sperm will find an egg released from the ovary in the fallopian tube, fertilize it, and it will catch on uterine lining and develop for 9 months.  That's sex, kids."

ooh, baby.  you get me so moist when you talk like that.


Anyway, there are apparently no lingering side-effects.  Either from the little contretemps or the Take Charge of Your Body program.  I took off early and did some cycling, and showed up at 3:35 at his teacher's door, and she said he had a good day.  So I let him grill some pork chops with me.  And watch Curious George. 

I'm still gonna make him read a book and practice his music. 

My wife rented "An Inconvenient Truth" and she's planning on having me sit through it with her.  I expect her to call me downstairs any minute.  I guess I won't make him sit through it.  I wouldn't do that to the boy even if he was in trouble.

Your wife must be a great woman. There is nothing like torturing your husband! we women pride ourself on that.

[The Mikado]

That reminds me: at the time (when I was in 4th grade), President Clinton was in hot water (I believe it was the Paula Jones accusation that he flashed her his penis and that there was a distinguishing mark on it) and we made so many Clinton jokes every time the teacher mentioned the penis.  I guess we were a pretty well-informed bunch of kids.  Then again, Paula Jones was big news.  I remember my parents ushering me out of the living room upon hearing the words "distinguishing mark on his genitals" on several occasions.

Sometimes I miss Bill Clinton, and then I remember what a slimeball he was.  It's nice to have a president from my party whose sex life I don't have to defend. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Sometimes I miss Bill Clinton, and then I remember what a slimeball he was.  It's nice to have a president from my party whose sex life I don't have to defend. 

Prude.

[angus]

Your wife must be a great woman. There is nothing like torturing your husband! we women pride ourself on that.

Ha!  Well, it wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be.  It's Al Gore's mug, and his monotone, undertaker's voice narrating, but that's the worst of it.  It was actually pretty interesting.  At least the nineteen minutes I watched.  Luckily, I realized that something needed desperately to be done around the house, and politely excused myself. 

[Wisconsin+17]

Wow, I'm a teacher. This is terrible. I would have pulled the kid out and gone to a different school, or taught him myself.

If this is what they are doing to kids in kindergarten, I like your wife thought that America was more about freedom than totalitarian busybodiness, and this is exactly what this is. Ugh!

No/No for me.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

I would go for yes. Some parents just do not teach their kids about this. Unfortunetly, there are bad parents. So yes, I do approve. However, I as a parent would want my kid to clearify what happened to make sure no lines were crossed. I approve. One neglectful parent can harm a child without knowing it till it is to late.

[Wisconsin+17]

What about teachers? Bad teachers can ruin school for kids.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

What about teachers? Bad teachers can ruin school for kids.

well a bad teacher can make a class bad, but not put the kid at harms risk. i know parents who have never taught their kid street smarts so they went with a stranger. she got locked in a garage and robbed. so yes, i think this is an important lesson to teach. From school or the parents. It has to be taught.

[The Mikado]

...What the hell is wrong with warning kindergardeners (do you have any words you always misspell?  I will write "kindergarteners" 100% of the time until I see the red squiggle) about good-touch/bad-touch?  "If Uncle Bob wants you to touch him in a funny place and says to keep it your little secret, tell Mommy and Daddy" etc.

[angus]

Wow, I'm a teacher.

Good for you.  I actually don't blame the teachers in this case, or the local administrators for that matter.  This was mandated by the legislature.  We don't have any general complaints about the school, just this policy.

As for the teacher, we like her very much.  She's old.  I like that in a kindergarten teacher.  And patient.  And very accommodating.  She even brought his lunch box to our house one day when he forgot it at school.  I've met with my son's teacher on a number of occasions, and she always makes time to see me and answer all my questions.