Sexual abuse education for kindergartners?

[angus]

Next week is Take Charge of Your Body week at my son's school.  I knew this day would come, but I didn't really expect it to come so soon.  They're doing a sex abuse/exploitation prevention program at my son's school next week.  Apparently this program has been taught for a number of years in Iowa.  According to the Iowa Family & Children's Council, 1 out of 4 girls and 1 out of 6 boys will be molested before the age of 18, so they're going to teach the kiddies what constitutes appropriate and inappropriate touching.

The email from the Principal says, in part:  "As your child's parent/guardian it is your right to have your child participate or not.  If you choose not to participate, please email or write your classroom teacher for notification.  Children not participating will be doing an alternative activity in the library or other available space."

See also:  http://www.fccouncil.net/

Anyway, I don't remember anything like this in public elementary schools back in the day.  I remember sex ed.  We got one semester of health in the 9th grade, and the sex ed portion was maybe two weeks of that semester.  Sex ed was controversial back then.  They did the banana/condom thing, and taught us about AIDS and pregnancy and such.  It was all fairly pro forma.  But that was in high school.  I was just wondering if you guys got the sex abuse training in elementary school.

(Wasn't sure where to put this, but it's likely to stir the pot, and it has to do with public school policy, so political debate seemed like the appropriate board.)

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I didn't go to kindergarten/yes, it should be optional


The way they're doing it is fine, angus, since you can opt the boy out and he won't be made fun of by his peers or teachers.  I suspect several parents will opt-out given the tender age of the youths in question.

[Joe Republic]

I don't really see the problem.  It clearly isn't sex ed in the sense of how to use a condom, safe sex, etc.  It's teaching young children how to tell the difference between harmless petting and Uncle Ronnie's game of "Let's Keep This Our Little Secret".

I guess it's fine that parents can opt out, but I don't see why they would necessarily want to.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I don't really see the problem.  It clearly isn't sex ed in the sense of how to use a condom, safe sex, etc.  It's teaching young children how to tell the difference between harmless petting and Uncle Ronnie's game of "Let's Keep This Our Little Secret".

I guess it's fine that parents can opt out, but I don't see why they would necessarily want to.

Right.....some are squeemish about introducing the subject at all at that age, but I'd send mine if she was the same age as angus' boy.

[angus]

I was just surprised that they're exposing the children to this sort of thing at such a young age nowadays.  Take charge of your body?  Hell, as it is, I have to tell him six times a day to stop playing with his penis.  I don't worry about Santa Clause because I've never let him sit upon Santa Claus' lap.  Dirty old pedophile. 

But I know that lots of parents don't constantly orbit their children the way my wife and I do, and they might find value in this sort of training.  Well, like I said, we'll probably let him go, but I need to ask my wife about all this first.

[specific_name]

I never had anything like this. The first mention of sex education was in 5th grade, it was a liberal district in Westchester. I then moved North and had it again in the 6th grade, they were piloting it on honors students (they thought we might be more mature). The average up here, the exurbs of NYC, seems to be 7th or 8th grade.

In any case there was no mention of good touch/bad touch. Part of me thinks it may not always be ideal to expose a child to this topic, so leaving it to the parents is the best approach. But I have to admit that it may do a lot to stop abuse, maybe every child should hear something about it. I don't have any kids of my own, so I'm largely agnostic on the whole thing.

[angus]

Part of me thinks it may not always be ideal to expose a child to this topic, so leaving it to the parents is the best approach. But I have to admit that it may do a lot to stop abuse, maybe every child should hear something about it.

I guess that's sort of my feeling as well.  Yin-Yang.

We teach the boy not to get into the car with strangers.  And don't play with anyone else's penis.  And if Santa Claus so much as touches you, then kick the bastard hard in the nuts, poke him in the eyes, and run away as fast as you can.

He knows that it takes a man and a woman to make a baby.  Oh, we haven't gone into much detail, but he asks lots of questions, so he has a vague understanding of the idea of sexual reproduction among mammals.  I know there will come a time when he'll want to play hide the salami with some skanky bimbo from his school.  And at that time we'll discuss it in more detail.  He'll be made to understand that he should not take the log to the beaver unless it is thoroughly sheathed in latex.  I'll talk to him about pregnancy.  And about chlamydia and herpes and gonococcal conjunctivitis.

But, yeah, I guess I'm sort of an old-fashioned guy and I think that's my duty.  And my wife's.  But I also respect that the school administrators know that we live in a very litigious society, and maybe they think that it would be a remission of their duty if they neglected to inform the students (and their parents) about how to cope with humanity's more unseemly elements.

Also, it seems that our society is lately obsessed with sexual molestation in general.

[Frodo]

No to both questions -sex ed should only be taught during middle school at the earliest.  

[dead0man]

I've sent four different kids through Kindergarten in three different districts over the last decade or so.....none of them did this.

[Ban my account ffs!]

No sex ed until 9th grade?  holy sh**t.  We started getting it in 4th grade..(much earlier on the school bus.. more like Kindergarten) though that was mostly just the biology of our reproductive systems and a bit about puberty.  Real sex ed began in 5th grade.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this stuff for kindergartners.  I suspect this is just another example of obsessively protective Gen X parents who want to shelter their kids from anything that could be considered off color and uncouth.

Amazingly... kids are more durable than many think.  My nephew begins kindergarten next fall... and if they teach him about inappropriate touching, I think he'll be all the better and wiser for it.  My sister would agree.  You lose a bit of innocence by learning these things.. but it's better than the alternative of not learning about it until you've been molested.

[Gustaf]

To be honest, I'm kind of skeptic.

First off, I'm not convinced the problem with child molestation is that the kids don't realize that it is inappropriate or wrong in some way.

Secondly, I think kids today are over-sexualized as it is.

Thirdly, I suspect you run the risk of having even more false accusations of child molestation if you explicitly tell kids about it.

[opebo]

Oh my, in a few years we'll be seeing the false accusations shoot through the roof.

Whenever I dandle the youths upon my knee the little bastards always knee me in the balls or grab my dick while making a frightful grimace, etc.  I feel like I'm the one that needs some training in how to deal with the little molesters.

[angus]

in a few years we'll be seeing the false accusations shoot through the roof.

I suspect you run the risk of having even more false accusations of child molestation

This thought occurred to me as well.  Sort of a 21st-century version of what the village of Salem went through in 1692. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

So what did you and the wife decide?

[Gustaf]

in a few years we'll be seeing the false accusations shoot through the roof.

I suspect you run the risk of having even more false accusations of child molestation

This thought occurred to me as well.  Sort of a 21st-century version of what the village of Salem went through in 1692. 

Well, it happened in Norway something like 10 or 20 years ago. In a village almost all the men ended up being accused of pedophilia. Eventually it turned out that many of those accusations had been fabricated.

[angus]

So what did you and the wife decide?

The wife was in a foul mood last night when I got home, because my son apparently had a very bad day.  Also, I'd forgotten it was my son's piano lesson night.  So, I get home just before 5 thinking I'd have a relaxing drink.  But when I got there they were in a heated discussion about the importance of developing social skills.  Then she says, "so you want me to take him?"  And I said, "take him where?  Oh, sh**t, it's Tuesday."  And, recognizing a good chance to escape, I said, "I'll take him."  We got there about 15 minutes early, but it was okay because when we get there early we sit in the chairs in the drum studios and watch the drummers practicing.  Also, the piano teacher's 6:00 appointment cancelled, so when his 5:30 to 6 lesson was over, I requested that she play her violin and accompany me while I play "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" on the piano.  The choice was dictated by the fact that this is what sheet music was already lying out there, apparently from her 5:00 lesson, and by the fact that it's one of the few pieces I can actually remember how to play from my own misspent youth.  Mostly it was just killing time, but I'd been seeing that violin sitting there atop the upright piano for several months, and I knew she also taught violin, and I kind of wanted to hear her play it.  She also broke off one of the little horse hair strings and gave it to us so I could put it under a microscope and show Louis the burrs that stick out on the horse hairs and cause the vibrations that make the violin play.  Then, we drove over to the lab and I fired up the scanning electron microscope and got it focused and showed him the burrs on the horse hair, and while it was on I walked down to my office and took out my stash of Tito's Vodka and had a shot or two while he played with the focus.  All in all, we were able to stay out till about 8 o'clock.  By then we were tired and hungry.  So we went home and had dinner.  Then it was his bed time, and by then my wife was calm and placid and deeply involved in reading some ancient tale of love and betrayal.  Or maybe it was a recipe for roasted duck.  Who knows?  It was in Mandarin and I didn't ask.  I didn't want to spoil the peace.

So it didn't come up last night.  I'll broach the subject tonight if everyone is in a chipper mood.

[angus]

Okay, we had lunch together today.  It's not often that we do, and it gave us a chance to discuss the issue.  She hadn't read the email from his school yet.  When I told her about it she made a face and said, "What?  At this age?"  I could have predicted the response.  We discussed it some more and she thinks it's a good idea to talk to his teacher.  I also suggested that we talk to a neighbor who has two young children in his school and who is generally active in the parent organizations in order to get more information about the program.

It's always a bit embarrassing for me to have to apologize for my society, especially to someone who was socialized by an obtrusive, authoritarian regime and who came to this country not only for economic mobility, but to escape the obtrusiveness of an ancient society.  She didn't say so directly, but it was clear to me, that she has also observed that we are somewhat obsessed about such things.  It's uncanny that her reactions upon hearing the news were the same as mine.  "Won't this lead to a rash of false accusations?"  "Won't this put ideas in their heads about sexual experimentation?"  "Don't they get enough sex and violence on television already?"  "Why are Americans always busy minding everyone's business, except their own?"

In the end, she did note that the boy has no sense of fear and no sense of safety.  He has a gregarious disposition and loves to talk to strangers, no matter how often we tell him otherwise.  And that this sort of training might be beneficial to such a person.

Ah, well.  At least we're on the same frequency.  We haven't decided what we'll do yet.  I do intend to get more information from his teacher before deciding. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

In the end, she did note that the boy has no sense of fear and no sense of safety.  He has a gregarious disposition and loves to talk to strangers, no matter how often we tell him otherwise.  And that this sort of training might be beneficial to such a person.

Ah, well.  At least we're on the same frequency.  We haven't decided what we'll do yet.  I do intend to get more information from his teacher before deciding. 

Good.....getting more info is always good.    Your son is like my 6-year old nephew.....my sister-in-law is very worried how social the boy is and how innocent.....like you said......no fears.  That's something to fear.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I was told dont let anyone touch you. Never knew what it meant to 4th grade. Looking back, this isnt so bad. I would let my son/daughter go to it.

[angus]

Never knew what it meant to 4th grade.

Apparently that's the sense of my son's teacher as well.  I went to talk to the school counselor about this, but he's in Japan for five weeks.  So the assistant counselor is doing it.  I'd never met her, so I decided to talk to his teacher.  The teacher said it's about an hour.  Someone from the state comes in and talks to them about not getting into cars with strangers.  That's good.  Then they take out a big life-size picture of a little boy and a little girl, wearing swimsuits.  And they point to where the penis is.  They say, "what's under the swimsuit here?"  That sort of thing.  They teach them words like penis and vagina.  My son calls his penis a penis.  He calls feces feces and he calls urine urine.  I'm a stickler about that.  But apparently lots of children use vulgar terms like poop and weenie, and they want to teach them correct terms.  I'm a big fan of proper terminology.  (See, for example, my remarks about the term homosexual elsewhere.)  But I also think that my wife and I, not the state of Iowa, should be charged with teaching him that a penis is a penis, etc. 

Anyway, she says she's not sure what the children who go to the library do, since the state requires her to attend the Take Charge of Your Body training, but that they probably read books and play games.  She says that every year a couple of students opt out, so in his class of 19, that's around ten percent.  She said it seemed awkward at first, but she's gotten used to it.  She did not seem convinced that it was a particularly efficient use of class time, and I don't think she was just patronizing me.  She said that they do interviews over the week and ask children whether they'd ever been advanced upon or molested.  And that every year a large majority of them report that they had.  The counselor--or, as will be the case this year, the assistant counselor, and the teacher says that this will probably complicate matters--has to sit through story after story about how my brother hugged me and I didn't like it, or my grandmother pats my butt and I don't like it, or my older sister squeezes my cheeks and I don't like it.  She also said that in all her years she does not know of a single legitimate molestation case that was reported by any of the school's students.  And to her knowledge no arrests, false or otherwise, have been made with respect to any of the school's students.  All of which is to confirm the many points made, including yours, which is that they aren't old enough to absorb this information in a meaningful way, and that the time would be better spent on reading, or writing, or learning that Italy is shaped like a boot kicking a pork chop.  She also agreed that this mandate, like so many mandates, was probably the result of some bureaucrat in Des Moines over-reacting to something he or she read or heard, but she wasn't sure specifically what started it.

She did say that the students have forgotten the whole thing by the following week and that no one ever seemed traumatized by it.  As creepy as it sounds, it may just amount to a minor waste of time and taxpayer money more than anything else, so we're leaning toward letting him go.  But my wife is slightly more reticent than I, so it's not settled.

[Pheurton Skeurto]

In Kindergarten, I was learning about shapes and numbers and the alphabet. I didn't know what "sex" was and my interpretation of "penis" was "wee-wee." So no, children should not be educated about sex or sexual abuse until at least 6th or 7th grade when hormones begin to race and teens become sexually curious and (unfortunately) sexually active.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Based upon the alarming number of false reports generated from the State's interrogation of the kids, I'd say let him read in the library. 

That is truly alarming.

[angus]

Based upon the alarming number of false reports generated from the State's interrogation of the kids, I'd say let him read in the library. 

That is truly alarming.

...but not surprising.  Think about it.  It's 1973.  I'm in Mrs. Hasson's kindergarten class.  There's this movie that comes on every night that my parents won't let me watch.  It's sort of like a soldier movie, but it comes on during the news.  Weird.  And when it comes on there are no words flashing, like you normally get in a movie.  It just cuts straight to a jungle, with loud sounds, like guns, and nervous reporters.  My parents never let us watch it though.  Sometimes I get glimpses of all these bodies lying around, but usually they quickly send us out of the room as soon as this movie comes on. 

Anyway, I ride a big yellow bus to Lincoln Elementary School.  Marla rides a different bus.  I like Marla.  She has black hair and dark eyes.  She's in Mrs. Hasson's class too.  We read books in Mrs. Hasson's class.  And we do some puzzles.  Learn the names of big geopolitical entities, like Texas and California and Germany and Africa.  It's fun, sometimes.

Now, imagine they have me, and Marla, and everybody else sit through a lecture where some old woman with a huge ass and a green polyester bell-bottom jumpsuit and high heels and plastic-framed glasses--hey, it's 1973, cut her some slack--anyway, she comes in and shows us a picture where there's a boy and a girl in swimsuits.  And this old lady starts asking what's under the swimsuit.  A penis, I say, nervously giggling.  Yes, a penis.  And what's under this girl's swimsuit.  (I know what's under there.  I have a sister.  A mama too.  But somehow they're different.  Sister is missing that little furry triangle, but I'm told she'll get that later.)  Anyway, she has a vagina.  Yeah, my parents teach us the proper words.  And I have a vague idea that Marla has a vagina too, although I've never thought about it in a meaningful way.  Till now, that is.  Anyway, this weird old lady starts asking us whether anyone has ever touched us in a way we didn't like.  Well, sure.  My grandma hugs me every time I see her.  And kisses me too.  And her moustache tickles my face.  And her breath stinks so badly.  But Mama says not to say anything.  Just give your grandma a kiss and be nice.  Now, I have a chance to talk about how grandma rubs her nasty mustache on me.  And grabs my butt.  Oh, how she stinks.  Yeah, but she gives us ice cream and candy.  Oh, you mean she gives you ice cream and candy for letting her touch your butt and kiss you?  Er, mm, well, sure I guess so.  I see...

Yeah, this all seems so terribly creepy to me.  Don't get me wrong.  I have absolutely no objection to teaching my son to watch out for strangers.  And I certainly don't object to talking to him about rubbers and pregnancy and warts and pimples and masturbation and the bodily fluids which can carry organisms that can end your life.  And I certainly do want him to understand that it takes a male and a female to sexually reproduce.  We already talk about these things in a vague way, a way that is age-appropriate.  But I think I should be the one to do that, not some stranger whose presence is mandated by a bureaucrat in Des Moines.

[Holmes]

My issue with the whole opt-out (and I don't know if it's much of an issue, but it could happen) is that, if a parent is actually abusing their child, obviously they'll opt out. Then that child will be none the wiser to what's going on.

I mean, sexuality exists, and children talk about it during recess or on the bus or at the playground. It's not even sex ed, it's about sexual abuse. I know most parents go over it with their children, but some don't, so having a professional inform them on the subject is good, with the proper terms and facts than one wouldn't hear on the playground. And for those with good parents, a review of what they already know can't be that bad. Better than what they normally do in kindergarten... napping? Actually, that would probably be funner.

I've never done it, or maybe I don't remember. I'd have my child do it.

[angus]

if a parent is actually abusing their child, obviously they'll opt out.

This seems likely.

It's not even sex ed, it's about sexual abuse.

This is accurate.

Those two observations further support the case that this program is a waste of taxpayer money and valuable class time.  First, those most likely to need the counseling are the least likely to receive it, for the logistical reasons you mention.  Second, it's not even the sort of useful how-to-put-a-condom-on-a-banana or how to avoid STD and pregnancy that would be useful.  The actual sex-ed, which I got in the 9th grade, might be useful for my son, though not in kindergarten.  (Admittedly, I didn't actually get properly laid till the 10th grade, and even with all the pro-social messages on television, even with all the AIDS scare that existed in the mid-80s, and even with all the instruction in school, I didn't use a rubber.  So, on some level I question even the usefulness of that.  But that's another issue, and it wasn't my goal to go into that issue in this thread.)

I know most parents go over it with their children, but some don't,

Just as some parents allow their children to eat shellfish, some don't.  some parents allow their children to watch television, some don't.  All are prerogatives of the parents, or at least that's my read of how the society functions.  I have never told my son that babies come from storks or anything silly like that.  I've talked to him about how animals evolve and how they go extinct, insomuch as I understand it, and at a level that he can understand it.  And I have tried to explain, more or less, sexual reproduction using flowers as tangible examples, accessible to someone his age, and even taking him into the field and showing him how the hapless bees frantically hump the clever orchids that they think are female bees, thereby doing most of the hard work.  He knows Mama and Daddy did something physical to make him, and he understands that mama has an egg and daddy has a seed.  (We prefer the terms egg and seed at this level.)  But the specifics can wait a few years. 

napping?

As an aside, it was to our great relief that we learned that neither the state of Iowa nor Cedar Falls Public Schools requires naps in kindergarten.  We fretted over that, since my son hates naps.  He started at a Montessori system preschool at the age of 3, and they required naps, and it was always traumatic for him.  We were happy to learn that his public kindergarten doesn't do that.

I've never done it, or maybe I don't remember.

Neither have I.  Then again, I was never an altar boy, so I really didn't need the training.