What's America Worth

[A18]

There's a lot more unconstitutional stuff than there is constitutional stuff.

Amendment XIII.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[Engineer]

Let's refute some of your agrument khirkhib.  When the nation was more 'christian', the churches took care of the poor.  In fact, that is part of what Christians are suppose to do.  But by and by we have let the government take over that role.  And because of that, taxes have gone up to pay for them.  Unfortunately lower taxes probably won't help, since most people aren't 'christian' anymore, and are rather greedy.

The problem is that we have ceased to be a Christian nation.  We no longer care about others, we only care about ourselves.  We have lost our internal moral compass.  Because of that, we have to have an external compass (the government) impose morality upon us.  I know a bunch of Christians on here will argue (wrongly) that we must have the government impose these laws, but external morality or any other law only leads to rebellion.  People have to change internally before there can be any real change.

So unfortunately we are probably stuck with a big and evergrowing government.

[Julien]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Unless of course you were a pacifist and disagreed with every war the U.S. has ever been in, which I doubt.

[DaleC76]

I would not be a soldier. I could not bring myself to take a life in such a situation. However, I would more than be willing to be a medic.

Unless you already have training, I don't think they give you a choice when you're drafted.  If they did, we would have had a LOT of medics and chaplains, but few soldiers.

[Storebought]

The nature of the war, who we fought, and most importantly, who we defended, would be major considerations on whether I enlisted, tolerated getting drafted, or simply dodged outright.

Dying in a rice paddy in SE Asia to prevent a Chinese conquest of the United States = A war worth enlisting
Dying in a dustpatch in Afghanistan so that some girl wouldn't later have her genatalia mutilated by the Taliban  = A draft-tolerable war.
Dying in a forest in Europe so that some kid has the opportunity enter university to badmouth both your service and the US in general = A draft-intolerable war and one worth dodging.

A war to defend the lives of Americans = A good war. A war to defend others from American-hating creeps = A tolerable war. A war to defend America-hating creeps = An unjust, immoral, government-toppling war.

[A18]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Erm, why?

[David S]

Let's refute some of your agrument khirkhib.  When the nation was more 'christian', the churches took care of the poor.  In fact, that is part of what Christians are suppose to do.  But by and by we have let the government take over that role.  And because of that, taxes have gone up to pay for them.  Unfortunately lower taxes probably won't help, since most people aren't 'christian' anymore, and are rather greedy.

The problem is that we have ceased to be a Christian nation.  We no longer care about others, we only care about ourselves.  We have lost our internal moral compass.  Because of that, we have to have an external compass (the government) impose morality upon us.  I know a bunch of Christians on here will argue (wrongly) that we must have the government impose these laws, but external morality or any other law only leads to rebellion.  People have to change internally before there can be any real change.

So unfortunately we are probably stuck with a big and evergrowing government.

My friend I have to disagree with you on two things: 1) Your comment "Unfortunately lower taxes probably won't help, since most people aren't 'christian' anymore, and are rather greedy."  Americans are still the most generous people in the world. I know many Christians who tythe and there are certainly many non-christian philanthropists who donate money to worthwhile causes. Billions of dollars were voluntarily donated to help out after the 9/11 attack. It would be a mistake to assume that nothing good can happen unless the government does it.

2) We don't need government to set our moral compass. That would be like saying I want to learn morality from Bill Clinton. No thanks.

[David S]

The nature of the war, who we fought, and most importantly, who we defended, would be major considerations on whether I enlisted, tolerated getting drafted, or simply dodged outright.

Dying in a rice paddy in SE Asia to prevent a Chinese conquest of the United States = A war worth enlisting
Dying in a dustpatch in Afghanistan so that some girl wouldn't later have her genatalia mutilated by the Taliban  = A draft-tolerable war.
Dying in a forest in Europe so that some kid has the opportunity enter university to badmouth both your service and the US in general = A draft-intolerable war and one worth dodging.

A war to defend the lives of Americans = A good war. A war to defend others from American-hating creeps = A tolerable war. A war to defend America-hating creeps = An unjust, immoral, government-toppling war.

In my humble opinion you could scratch the first one too. We did not win the war in Vietnam, and yet we were not invaded by China.

[Storebought]

The nature of the war, who we fought, and most importantly, who we defended, would be major considerations on whether I enlisted, tolerated getting drafted, or simply dodged outright.

Dying in a rice paddy in SE Asia to prevent a Chinese conquest of the United States = A war worth enlisting
Dying in a dustpatch in Afghanistan so that some girl wouldn't later have her genatalia mutilated by the Taliban  = A draft-tolerable war.
Dying in a forest in Europe so that some kid has the opportunity enter university to badmouth both your service and the US in general = A draft-intolerable war and one worth dodging.

A war to defend the lives of Americans = A good war. A war to defend others from American-hating creeps = A tolerable war. A war to defend America-hating creeps = An unjust, immoral, government-toppling war.

In my humble opinion you could scratch the first one too. We did not win the war in Vietnam, and yet we were not invaded by China.

I wasn't actually talking about Vietnam. I mean the war with China that we will see within these 30 years.

[Kodratos]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Erm, why?

Sad to see a Frenchman that's more patriotic than you.

I'm embarassed that we're in the same party.

[Storebought]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Erm, why?

Sad to see a Frenchman that's more patriotic than you.

I'm embarassed that we're in the same party.

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but perhaps Philip wouldn't serve in WWII to fight and die for Frenchmen. I know I have a damn hard time trying to justify that.

[Kodratos]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Erm, why?

Sad to see a Frenchman that's more patriotic than you.

I'm embarassed that we're in the same party.

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but perhaps Philip wouldn't serve in WWII to fight and die for Frenchmen. I know I have a damn hard time trying to justify that.

I don't know what history books you've been reading but last I heard we didn't fight WWII for the French.

And for you to insinuate that dying for Arabs or Jews is ok but not for Frenchmen is disgusting.

[khirkhib]

So when Engineer were we a Christian Nation again.  When were we so chartiable as to have cured the social ill of poverty and the symptoms it creats.  Was it pre-1860s when slavery existed because I always thought that slave owners were really looking out for their slaves best interest putting a roof over there head and food every day.  Hell slavery is just private sector welfare, law enforcement, food stamps, work corps, and home subsidiies all wrapped up in one tight package.  And the owners of those slaves, good church attending christians, the pillars of their community.  

OK, maybe that wasn't our Christian Peak.  Maybe it was the 1870s-1920s  The Guilded age,  Industry was king with its robber barons.  People were working, well not some people "Irish need not apply" but hey the economy was doing so well that even kids could get jobs in the factory.  Oh but make sure you don't get mauled in the machine.  The invisible hand knows what industry will tolerate and it doesn't need a government to dictate safety devices for machines, or exits for sewing shops, or compinsation for the unrightful death or mutilation of its employees.

So when were we a Christian Nation the most and get ready for it because I know alot of you won't like it but it might have been during the 1930s and 40s when we all pulled together to create the strongest nation the world has ever seen.  And what made the US the super power that it would become but the programs of FDR.  That is why the world loves the US so much.  Would you really think that we would be a powerful nation if we didn't have schools for everybody, roads everywhere, rilable eletricity and water for everybody everywhere.  Some people on this site really don't understand what it is that makes America so strong and it is not unleashed captilalism.  You want captialism unleased look at Russia in the 90s, look at many African nations.  Succesful businessmen can make a hell of a profit there.

It has often been said and I'll said it again now.  That Democrats dream of a Utpoian society that will and can never exist while Republicans mourn for idylic society that never was.

[Storebought]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

You can certainly never claim to be a patriot or have your nation's best interests at heart.

If you were to do that, you would be a hypocrite.

Erm, why?

Sad to see a Frenchman that's more patriotic than you.

I'm embarassed that we're in the same party.

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but perhaps Philip wouldn't serve in WWII to fight and die for Frenchmen. I know I have a damn hard time trying to justify that.

I don't know what history books you've been reading but last I heard we didn't fight WWII for the French.

And for you to insinuate that dying for Arabs or Jews is ok but not for Frenchmen is disgusting.

It will be my life that will come to an end in a war. Because we live in the US, we can decide whether to enlist based solely on our own consciences.  So, yes, I will gladly give up my life to protect the lives of other Americans if this nation is ever invaded. I can die, if I'm called to do so by the United States, to protect those 'Arabs' and 'Jews' and whichever race that wants to live apart from terror and evil.

However, I will never give my life to protect the comfort of our enemies. And, yes, I see France as an enemy of the United States.

But that is speaking for myself and not for Philip.

[John Dibble]

Answering the initial question - if America was indeed a product, I know exactly what I'd pay for it. I would pay, like any good capitalist, the least amount possible, same as I'd pay for anywhere I'd want to live. I wouldn't pay anything more than it's worth.

Of course, America is not a product, so the costs are more than just taxes.