What's America Worth

[khirkhib]

I was think how great it is living in America.  We have paved roads, we have electricity, we have lights, we have jobs, we have security, we have laws, the list goes on and on.  So I thought it would be good to ask everybody how much of your income would you pay for the opportunity to live in America if you were from Haiti (they don't really have taxes there), what percentage of your income is life in America worth verses living in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. How much of a sacrifice is  our chances here verses living in Afghanistan.

Fortunately since relatively few are asked to lay down their lives for America, and my heart goes out to the 1200 that have died in Iraq,  I figure it is worth some amount of money.

I would consider time volunteering for your country in the Army, Peace Corps, America Corps, as a teacher and even jury duty as a precentage of your income against your potentional income total.  So 5 years in the Army an average 40 year carreer in whatever industry could be considered 12.% of your lifetimes earning.

[A18]

A socialist America is not worth my money.

[KEmperor]

I oppose this question based on false premises.

[khirkhib]

What false premises.  I think it is pretty straight forward.   If America was  a product how much would you pay for it.

Supply and Demand.  Hell. I'm willing to die for America.  I'm happy if I'm taxed less than that.

[KEmperor]

What false premises.  I think it is pretty straight forward.   If America was  a product how much would you pay for it.

Supply and Demand.  Hell. I'm willing to die for America.  I'm happy if I'm taxed less than that.

America is not a product.  It is a nation.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

[Alcon]

I suppose here is the better question:

How much of your income would you be willing to spend to stay in America?

[ATFFL]

What false premises.  I think it is pretty straight forward.   If America was  a product how much would you pay for it.

Supply and Demand.  Hell. I'm willing to die for America.  I'm happy if I'm taxed less than that.

America is not a product.  It is a nation.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

No, he is comparing apples and molten lava. 

[Nation]

If another WWII came around, I would gladly enlist to serve my country (and avoid getting drafted onto the front lines!)

[A18]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

[DaleC76]

Where's the option for "America Should Pay Me To Live Here?"

[Nation]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's your prerogative. If I ever met you after the war and you told me that, I'd probably hit you.

Well,  I'd only hit you if you were one of those chain-smoking hippies, which you certainly aren't. Just an a-hole. I can tolerate that.

[A18]

Trust me. I wouldn't be much use in the military.

[Lunar]

I don't want to live in Port-au-Prince of course, but the question seems odd for some reason.

[Nym90]

I guess the question is supposed to be, if you lived in Haiti, how much would you be willing to pay in order to move to America.

Or conversely, if someone was going to pay you to move to Haiti, how much would they have to be willing to offer in order for you to take the deal.

[khirkhib]

The phrasing is a little tricked up but the sentiment is there.  Of course America is a product.  We are trying to sell America Brand democracy all over the world.  America is branded and marteted extremely well through-out the world.  I just find it amazing that people go on and on this forum complaining about taxes.  (many of those complaing about taxes surely are too young to be paying that much in taxes anyway)  When really look at the alternative.  Quite frankly the Nordic countries have some of the highest taxes in the world,  they also have the highest standard of life.  America's standard of life is slipping. For christ sake infant mortality went up this year in the US.  I, as many of you know, have lived in a third world country,  and I happily pay whatever taxes are appropriate to keep our country strong.  I guess it is just worthless to some people. 

I however could see lowering someones taxes if they committed to some sort of voluntary service to support the country be it in the military, working as a teacher for poor school districts, or working in a homeless shelter.

Philip you have said many things that I have disagreed with in this forum before but the fact that you say you would dodge a WWII situation makes me sick.  I mean we all know that you are no pacifist.  That is why Cheney/Bush and his ilk are so much more repulsive to me than Clinton or Kerry in regards to Vietnam.  Cheney and Bush were hawks about vietnam but went to extrodinary lengths to avoid service.  Many people say Clinton dodged the draft (he got a high draft number) and he thought the Vietnam war was wrong (NO WE COULD NOT HAVE WON VIETNAM NO MATTER HOW MUCH AMERICA HAD SUPPORTED - part of going into a war is having America's support.  That is part of the reason why it took as long as it did for the US to get involved in WWII Roosevelt was supporting the allies and creating an american mentality that could win the war. Best of all worlds, braver than I would be, is Kerry who first did what his country asked of him and than after the war did what his concious demanded of him.

This isn't a false comparison at all.  Many people through-out the world dream of having the oportunities that America creates.  I think many people on this forum take her for granted.

[Lunar]

This isn't a false comparison at all.  Many people through-out the world dream of having the oportunities that America creates.  I think many people on this forum take her for granted.

Everyone takes every benefit they have for granted.  The North takes their economic situation for granted while ..say...Ethiopians take coffee beans for granted.  Surely they aren't the same, but it's the inevitable result of living in an environment.

[J-Mann]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

Shame on you!  You're just an armchair quarterback.  Granted I haven't served in the military either, but I'd never dodge a draft.  If you've got a legitimate medical reason to not go, that's one thing, but just being scared...that's ridiculous.

[Engineer]

Sorry for this torturously rambling response, but here are some comments on everybody's comments...

As stated by others, equating how much is it worth to live in America doesn't translate into how much you are willing to pay in taxes.  It is priceless to live in America, but not an America with socialistically high taxes, because then it wouldn't be America, it would be a France or Germany.

True, a lot here aren't old enough to pay taxes, I am.  I currently am one that John Kerry wanted to increase the taxes on.  When you work hard to create a business, employ others and help your local community, you don't want to see a large portion of your income go to subsidize other people, many who aren't willing to get off their butts and work themselves.  The government is creating a system in which it is easier to not to work, than it is to work.  My wife's family is a perfect example of this.  They think the government owes them everything, so they don't even try to get a job, they just collect welfare and do drugs (with an occasional crime once in a while).

You can't force somebody to volunteer, it has to be in their heart to volunteer.  I volunteer my time and money for many things. Giving a tax break for it will only lead to 'volunteers' who don't accomplish anything (the difference between the GOP & Dem GOTV).

The Nordic countries also have the highest suicide rates in all the world.  So maybe it isn't the great paradise you make it out to be.

I have never served in the military, and probably would have gotten out for flat feet/bad eyesight/torn cartlege etc.  It doesn't mean I wouldn't have served in a war such as WWII.  If you believe in the cause strongly enough, you will find a way to serve.  If somebody has a strong enough conviction (not perference, a conviction is something that you're willing to die for) not to fight, then they shouldn't.  They would be a hinderance in a war.  And you can't say at this time whether you would go to war or not Philip, until you know the nature of the war.  If the war was to stop Japan from killing dolphins, you'd get very few wanting to go.  If it was a nuclear strike from China, with a large assault on our land with wanton rape and torture of you family and friends, your attitude would probably change.

Their is an old saying, with age comes wisdom.  Not always true, but many who are older have the experience of live behind them.

[A18]

What does the fact that I'm not a pacifist have to do with whether or not I'm going to serve in the military? A draft is amoral and unconstitutional.

[David S]

Sorry for this torturously rambling response, but here are some comments on everybody's comments...

As stated by others, equating how much is it worth to live in America doesn't translate into how much you are willing to pay in taxes.  It is priceless to live in America, but not an America with socialistically high taxes, because then it wouldn't be America, it would be a France or Germany.

True, a lot here aren't old enough to pay taxes, I am.  I currently am one that John Kerry wanted to increase the taxes on.  When you work hard to create a business, employ others and help your local community, you don't want to see a large portion of your income go to subsidize other people, many who aren't willing to get off their butts and work themselves.  The government is creating a system in which it is easier to not to work, than it is to work.  My wife's family is a perfect example of this.  They think the government owes them everything, so they don't even try to get a job, they just collect welfare and do drugs (with an occasional crime once in a while).

You can't force somebody to volunteer, it has to be in their heart to volunteer.  I volunteer my time and money for many things. Giving a tax break for it will only lead to 'volunteers' who don't accomplish anything (the difference between the GOP & Dem GOTV).

The Nordic countries also have the highest suicide rates in all the world.  So maybe it isn't the great paradise you make it out to be.

I have never served in the military, and probably would have gotten out for flat feet/bad eyesight/torn cartlege etc.  It doesn't mean I wouldn't have served in a war such as WWII.  If you believe in the cause strongly enough, you will find a way to serve.  If somebody has a strong enough conviction (not perference, a conviction is something that you're willing to die for) not to fight, then they shouldn't.  They would be a hinderance in a war.  And you can't say at this time whether you would go to war or not Philip, until you know the nature of the war.  If the war was to stop Japan from killing dolphins, you'd get very few wanting to go.  If it was a nuclear strike from China, with a large assault on our land with wanton rape and torture of you family and friends, your attitude would probably change.

Their is an old saying, with age comes wisdom.  Not always true, but many who are older have the experience of live behind them.

You said that very nicely. America is still the best country to live in. America was founded on the principles of rights, freedom, and free enterprise. Thats what made this a great country. My concern is that the socialist policies this country is leaning toward deviate from those principles. In my estimation socialism is a destructive philosophy that will lead to our downfall.

The question that was asked was how much would I pay in taxes to live in America. One of the advantages to America is that taxes are low compared to socialist leaning countries in Europe. So higher taxes would make America less of a good place. In effect the question is; am I willing to pay higher taxes to make America worse? My answer to that is no.

If I lived in Haiti I would probably pay everything I had to live in America.

[khirkhib]

Good Response David.

So lets take it on to a libertarian track. I think we have fairly well established that the maximum we are willing to pay to our country is everything. Except for Phillip.  Because we are patriotic but David and Engineer have clearly rebutted that America would not be America if we had to pay everything to country - part of what has made America great is low taxes, class mobility and the whole Horatio Alger dream of rags to riches. 

So to the libertarians on this site I ask what is the minimum, the bare minumum, that the government federal/state/local should provide for its communities.  The service should, idealy, maintain the country as a super-power industrialized country.  What % of your income would you have to pay for this bare bone government.  For example I can argue that the automative industry has been very highly subsidized by the government.  It would have been much cheaper and effecient for the government to have constructed mass transit systems through-out are urban and suburban areas but the US opted for the ultimately more expensive system of cars and roads.  Roads are pretty socialistic if you think about, though good for the economy, but really in an Adam Smith sense of capitalism, all roads should be toll roads and pay for themselves.  I think that we wouldn't be able to maintain ourselves, or would be begging for disaster with out a reliable water system, eletrical system, food supply and leaving these basics to pure market forces could be extremely dangerous.  It is insane how much electricity is subsidized there are communities and houses way of the grid that we all pay for to make sure that they get electricity.  The market wouldn't  natural stomach that unless those individuals and communities paid much higher prices to pay for the additional infrastructure as well. 

I don't think that we could really have a great country either if we had people dying of hunger and/or rioting in the streets.  The funny thing is that these are also two very really options for your welfare queens engineer.  Sure maybe they will be more motivated to work or maybe they will enter more criminal activities so that they can survive or maybe they would just die.  Unfortunately I am to much of a humanitarian christian and not enough of a social darwinist  to really want to see the weaker links die off.

I know their is pork.  Hell the government sent a whole bunch of money up to Alaska this year to study uses of Salmon in baby food but hey what are the basics?  What should the government provide.

[Julien]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

[David S]

Khirkhib. Your question boils down to; what is the rightful role of government?  For the federal government that's spelled out mostly in Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution. It includes things like defense, the treasury, the patent office, the federal justice system, and the post office. Of those, by far the most costly is Defense which currently runs about $500 billion annually. If I doubled that number to account for the other constitutional functions, that would put the cost of the federal government at $1 trillion, less than half of the 2.3 trillion  currently being spent. But even the 1 trillion figure is being overly generous. Defense could be cut significantly if we didn't station soldiers in over 100 countries around the world. Also the other constitutional functions would not cost nearly as much as defense so if the federal government just did those things which the constitution provides for I would guess that the cost of government could be reduced to about $700-800 billion per year. That would mean privatizing social security, medicare, medicaid, and dropping welfare, corporate welfare, and foreign aid, and all of the pork projects.

The states have more flexibility in what they can do. The people of each state should be able to decide what they want their government to do. That way people in the Bible Belt states can say prayers in school, and post the 10 comandments if they want while people in very liberal states can legalize gay marriage, and smoking marijuana and what ever else they think is right for them.

Personally I think the states should have a role in road building and repair. Fund it with gas taxes so the people who use the most gas pay the most to support the roads. That way heavy trucks that do damage to the roads will pay a proportionally higher share of the cost as will people who drive more miles.

Education is a tougher issue. My Libertarian instincts say it should be entirely privatized, but I know that is impracticle, so I think private schools funded by vouchers might be the best answer at present.

[A18]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

[Alcon]

If another WWII came around, I would not enlist, and if I was drafted, I'd dodge.

That's pretty sad.

Why's that?

A draft is not unconstitutional. You are making that up because you are afraid of going to War. You call anything unconstitutional that you dislike. Quit it. It's unconstitutional to do that.

I would not be a soldier. I could not bring myself to take a life in such a situation. However, I would more than be willing to be a medic.