Do you think Gaddafi will hold on ?

[You kip if you want to...]

Just saw a credible guy on BBC today (I think they identified him as an ex foreign secretary of the UK) who said he had always thought Gaddafi would win out, and that he doesn't think any foreign powers will intervene decisively.

This guy?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bump.

[dead0man]

Looking better today than it did yesterday.

[Middle-aged Europe]

There are massive fluctuations on Intrade regarding the question "Muammar al-Gaddafi to no longer be leader of Libya before midnight ET 31 Dec 2011".

I think yesterday it was down to 40% or something. Now it's back at 70% (I think t has been higher than 70% before, though).

[afleitch]

Opebo I deleted your post.  It was a steaming pile of horsesh-t.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Looking better today than it did yesterday.

Worse in my book, entirely due to imperialism.

The white powers have no regard for what the Libyan people want.  Gaddafi was winning in a fair fight, and the civil war was almost over when the racist Empire decided to meddle.  too bad they didn't wait two more days.

This is so blatantly ridiculous that even you can't seriously say it.

[opebo]

Looking better today than it did yesterday.

Worse in my book, entirely due to imperialism.

The white powers have no regard for what the Libyan people want.  Gaddafi was winning in a fair fight, and the civil war was almost over when the racist Empire decided to meddle.  too bad they didn't wait two more days.

This is so blatantly ridiculous that even you can't seriously say it.

I absolutely consider what I said to be the accurate interpretation of what is being done.

[Insula Dei]

Looking better today than it did yesterday.

Worse in my book, entirely due to imperialism.

The white powers have no regard for what the Libyan people want.  Gaddafi was winning in afair fight, and the civil war was almost over when the racist Empire decided to meddle.  too bad they didn't wait two more days.

This is so blatantly ridiculous that even you can't seriously say it.

I absolutely consider what I said to be the accurate interpretation of what is being done.

Damn the West for ruining a Fair Fight. How are we supposed to enjoy a good war, when people who've got nothing to do with it start to meddle. This is like cyclists on EPO!

[opebo]

Worse in my book, entirely due to imperialism.

The white powers have no regard for what the Libyan people want.  Gaddafi was winning in afair fight, and the civil war was almost over when the racist Empire decided to meddle.  too bad they didn't wait two more days.

Damn the West for ruining a Fair Fight. How are we supposed to enjoy a good war, when people who've got nothing to do with it start to meddle. This is like cyclists on EPO!

Even if you abandon all standards of 'fairness', the point is that this is the same European meddling in African affairs that has been perpetrated for hundreds of years.  If these mobs in Bengazi couldn't topple their government themselves, then why should the imperialist French?

[Mr. Morden]

Is Gaddafi employing mercenaries from Sudan and Nigeria part of a "fair fight"?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Imperialism is an interesting charge, given Gaddafi's own actions in the rest of Africa.

[Lincoln Republican]

To anyone who actually believes that this is a fair fight between the Gaddafi loyalists and the rebels does not know the facts or is purposefully attempting to mislead others.

The rebels have some fire power for certain, however, not of the calibre the Libyan army possesses.  Nor do the rebels have planes for bombing the Libyan forces, like the Libyan forces have to bomb rebel positions.  The anti aircraft guns used by the rebels are antiquated, and they possess few tanks.

This is hardly a fair fight, as a certain individual posting on here would have others believe. 

Friday, with the imposition of a no fly zone via a United Nations resolution certainly goes a long way toward making this fight more fair.  In despseration, the Gaddafi government has announced that they will comply with the resolution, and have announced a cease fire.  This, like everything Gaddafi and his henchmen say is a blatant lie, as the Libyan army continues its' assault on innocent people.

This resolution will lead to the demise of the Gaddafi regime.  Make no mistake, the rebels with prevail, evil and greed will fail.

Gaddafi and his sons are a monsters who are willing to slaughter as many Libyans and who are willing to lay to waste as much of the country as necessary to maintain power and control.

Gaddafi and his sons are tyrants who will end up like all other tyrants, on the dustbin of history.

[opebo]

Is Gaddafi employing mercenaries from Sudan and Nigeria part of a "fair fight"?

Yes, that is a minor factor, and they are fellow Africans from countries of a similar development level.  The mob in Bengazhi could have employed similar ones.  But depending upon the historical imperialist powers - who are enormously more powerful than any African country, is clearly an abdication of legitimacy.  If the rebellion cannot succeed on its own merits, and becomes a mere puppet of the West for re-asserting control, then all the pejoratives used by Gaddafi about them are true.

Imperialism is an interesting charge, given Gaddafi's own actions in the rest of Africa.

Apples an oranges, Al, and you know it - the historic domination of Africa by these large meddling European powers (France, UK, Belgium) is a horror story.  Anything Gaddafi has done since is a tiny, ineffectual footnote.

[Gustaf]

"Fellow Africans". Lol. What incredible racism.

[John Dibble]

Is Gaddafi employing mercenaries from Sudan and Nigeria part of a "fair fight"?

Yes, that is a minor factor, and they are fellow Africans from countries of a similar development level.  The mob in Bengazhi could have employed similar ones.

Right, using their billions of dollars of oil money that they've saved up over the years by exploiting the people... oh wait.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

"Fellow Africans". Lol. What incredible racism.

I missed how it's racist.  I'm not agreeing with what he wrote, btw.

[Gustaf]

"Fellow Africans". Lol. What incredible racism.

I missed how it's racist.  I'm not agreeing with what he wrote, btw.

Thinking that Nigerian mercenaries are fellow Africans to a Libyan dictator indicates a pretty colonialist and uninformed perspective on Africa.

The use of the term racist was more in mockery of a certain poster who calls people racist for pretty much everything.

[opebo]

"Fellow Africans". Lol. What incredible racism.

I missed how it's racist.  I'm not agreeing with what he wrote, btw.

The use of the term racist was more in mockery of a certain poster who calls people racist for pretty much everything.

Gustaf is as usual sidestepping my point by talking about something completely irrelevant - in this case mentioning my racism, Gramps.  The issue at hand is Imperialism, and while that is normally racist, calling the messenger racist doesn't change the fact that European intervention in Libya is imperialism.

(my conflation of 'black Africans' with the Libyans - who are of a somewhat different ethnicity - had nothing do with race anyway, Gustaf, but rather region, locality, and development level, leaving aside the obvious point that they are a negligible factor in the legitimate government's effort to put down the mob.)

[Gustaf]

"Fellow Africans". Lol. What incredible racism.

I missed how it's racist.  I'm not agreeing with what he wrote, btw.

The use of the term racist was more in mockery of a certain poster who calls people racist for pretty much everything.

Gustaf is as usual sidestepping my point by talking about something completely irrelevant - in this case mentioning my racism, Gramps.  The issue at hand is Imperialism, and while that is normally racist, calling the messenger racist doesn't change the fact that European intervention in Libya is imperialism.

(my conflation of 'black Africans' with the Libyans - who are of a somewhat different ethnicity - had nothing do with race anyway, Gustaf, but rather region, locality, and development level, leaving aside the obvious point that they are a negligible factor in the legitimate government's effort to put down the mob.)

Of course, you're wrong on all of those counts as well, but keep going.

And you should be grateful I didn't bother with commenting on the rest of your nonsense, but only on the part that was amusing.

[patrick1]

Opebo, statistics and indices can sometimes be off the mark, but Libya has a rather high level of development and per capita GDP. Higher than many European countries and significantly higher than Thailand. Thus, I don't think you can compare Libya with sub-saharan Africa. I'm sure you will use this as evidence to keep Big Mo in power- just wanted to inject.

[opebo]

Opebo, statistics and indices can sometimes be off the mark, but Libya has a rather high level of development and per capita GDP. Higher than many European countries and significantly higher than Thailand. Thus, I don't think you can compare Libya with sub-saharan Africa. I'm sure you will use this as evidence to keep Big Mo in power- just wanted to inject.

Precisely - Gaddafi has provided a rather wonderful quality of life for his people.  (something that the imperialist Western oil companies would never have done).  And anyway, the whole issue is nonsense, as the 'African mercenaries' were a mere anecdote.  Gaddafi's rule of Libya depends upon a support of the Libyan people and the great mass of the Libyan military, not upon a few hundred mercenaries.  By contrast, the entirety of the support of the other side of the civil war depends upon the imperialist militaries of France, UK, US, Belgium, etc.

[Lincoln Republican]

Gustaf is as usual sidestepping my point by talking about something completely irrelevant - in this case mentioning my racism, Gramps.  The issue at hand is Imperialism, and while that is normally racist, calling the messenger racist doesn't change the fact that European intervention in Libya is imperialism.

(my conflation of 'black Africans' with the Libyans - who are of a somewhat different ethnicity - had nothing do with race anyway, Gustaf, but rather region, locality, and development level, leaving aside the obvious point that they are a negligible factor in the legitimate government's effort to put down the mob.)

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Opebo, as to the points you have raised:

One  

What you refer to as imperialism, which in this case is, obviously, not imperialism at all, rather, it is liberation by the world community of the innocent Libyan victims of Gaddafi, in order to prevent the further slaughter of innocent Libyans at the hand of some maniacal madman and his equally maniacal militaristic followers.

If you still insist on calling this imperialism, then this is a case in which imperialism is completely justified.

Two

With his behavior over the past weeks, slaughtering innocent people, Gaddafi has no legitimacy whatsoever, nor can any reasonable, thinking person believe he has.

Three

The "mob," as you refer to innocent people who have been ruthlessly oppressed for over fourty years, and simply want freedoms that should be available to every human being in this world, are not the "mob," they are the innocent victims of a ruthless, maniacal, self serving regime.  Rather, the "mob" are Gaddaffi, his sons, and the thugs who comprise his army and those who support him.

Opebo, there is right and wrong in this world, and Gaddafi and his followers are obviously wrong, and the liberation movement from the world community is obviously right.  

[milhouse24]

Everyone wants the oil, me included, but I'll take his russian nurse!

[opebo]

What you refer to as imperialism, which in this case is, obviously, not imperialism at all, rather, it is liberation by the world community of the innocent Libyan victims of Gaddafi, in order to prevent the further slaughter of innocent Libyans at the hand of some maniacal madman and his equally maniacal militaristic followers.

'Innocent'?  How are they 'innocent'?  They've taken up arms against their nation.  You might as well say the Army of the Confederacy were a lot of 'innocent civilians'.  As for your hypocritical accusation that Gaddafi and his followers are 'maniacal madmen or militaristic', this is cultural imperialism. 

If you still insist on calling this imperialism, then this is a case in which imperialism is completely justified.

The "mob," as you refer to innocent people who have been ruthlessly oppressed for over fourty years, and simply want freedoms that should be available to every human being in this world, are not the "mob," they are the innocent victims of a ruthless, maniacal, self serving regime.  Rather, the "mob" are Gaddaffi, his sons, and the thugs who comprise his army and those who support him.

What business is it of yours to say what 'freedoms' should or should not be available to various people around the world?  What arrogance - what imperialistic arrogance.  These people are having a revolution - fine.  I don't care what are their reasons.  What business is it of ours?  But let them win or lose on their own merits.  They lose all legitimacy as they are now, a mere pawn of foreign powers attempting to take over Libya.

Opebo, there is right and wrong in this world, and Gaddafi and his followers are obviously wrong, and the liberation movement from the world community is obviously right.

Your naivety is profound, Winfield.  While of course I don't believe in any morality, I can tell you that the one the Chinese or the Libyans or various others believe in is different from the one you believe in.  The only 'right' that is being exercised by the imperialist cabal is 'Might Makes Right'.

[Lincoln Republican]

Opebo, you are sometimes engaging to discuss issues with, as your postings are interesting, outlandish, but interesting.

Your statement "taken up arms against their nation" would be hilarious if it wasn't so ridiculous.  You would take up arms too if you were being bombarded by heavy artillery fire and tanks and hundreds of innocents around you were being butchered on a daily basis by a madman and his henchmen, and you were on their hit list.

The army of the Confederacy is a discussion for another place and time, suffice it to say that at that time, the Confederate States of America was, for all intents and purposes, their country.

Try telling the families of the victims of Gadaffi's massacres that this slaughter of their loved ones is "cultural imperialism."  I'd love to see how far you'd get in Benghazi right now telling these people that this slaughter of their families by Gadaffi and his henchmen is "cultural imperialism."

As a member of the human race, it is very much my business to have concern and compassion for my fellow members of the human race, no matter in which country they reside, and to support basic freedoms for my fellow human beings throughout the world.

Your use of the word "imperialism" is wearing very thin, and is becoming trite.

The fact that a people suppressed for over fourty years by a ruthless tyrant are having a revolution demanding basic human rights and are being slaughtered is very much the world's business, and that is exactly why the United Nations, a world organization, has acted.

Opebo, you are the one that is naive if you still believe that the world community has no business in protecting innocent victims of a tyrannical madman.

Face it Opebo, you are on the wrong side of history in this issue, and you are pursuing a losing argument.