Should we have border security?

[Ban my account ffs!]

I'd prefer no border security between the U.S and Canada with passport checks only when you fly into Canada as a U.S. citizen from outside the U.S.

For Mexico, I'd prefer a much easier path to citizenship with strict punishments for companies that hire illegal immigrants.  I'd also support proof of citizenship for adults.

At the same time, I think the federal government should spend more on educating ESL children, legal or otherwise.  That just makes sound economic sense.

The only way I'd support a wall or a virtual fence is if we made it easy for Mexicans to enter the U.S. legally.  Offer "fast passes" for people who legally work here or have family here and also for people who have no criminal history and apply for entry a few days in advance.  People who just show up at the border should be subject to random searches and other scrutiny... but it should be streamlined.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Again, please be honest.

I don't know why you insist that people who don't fully agree with you must be fully opposed to you.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Snowguy,

Now, let me see if I understand what you posted.

First, you would tell the Canadians that they may check passports of a U.S. citizen only if they fly into Canada from a location outside the United States?

By omission, may I presume that you want no check of passports for anyone entering the United States from Canada?

Second, you want  "a much easier path to citizenship" for Mexico.  Good luck with that.  Or, were you trying to say that those who enter the United States from Mexico should not be held to the same standards as aliens entering the United States from other countries?

Third, good luck getting punishment, strict or otherwise for companies that hire illegal aliens (why do you insist on labeling all illegal aliens "immigrants"? )  Both Bush and Obama have firmly opposed that measure.

Fourth, the Obama administration is adamant on opposing "proof of citizenship for adults."  Yeah, its on on the statute books, but, Obama goes berserk when it is suggested that those laws be enforced.

Fifth, yeah it would be nice if the federal government, which is the cause of the problem would pay for the cost of "educating ESL children."  Right now, the states are burdened with that cost.

Sixth, why should it be made easier for "Mexicans to enter the U.S. legally" than people for other countries?  

Seventh, as to the "fast passes," ever hear of: http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Crossing_Card

Eighth, a "virtual fence" has been proven to be a waste of money.  Why do you want to waste money?

Ninth, aside from opponents of border security, no one is suggesting construction of a "wall."  However, physical impediments to illegal entry have been found to be effective along the border between California and Mexico.

Don't know if you have heard the latest.  The taxpayers will pay to retrofit trucks owned by Mexican nationals operating in the United States with emission equipment whereas American owned trucks failing to pass emission tests are subject to fine and repair at the owners cost.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again, please be honest.

I don't know why you insist that people who don't fully agree with you must be fully opposed to you.

I have asked you to cite any example of border security which you supposedly support.

You did not cite one.

You have, however, opposed every single example of border security which I have cited.

Hmm.

Again, I request that you stop misrepresenting your position and simply be honest.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

CARL, I support the increase in the increase in the border patrol, but by and large I don't support building walls to nowhere since they only shift the problem elsewhere, not eliminate it. Since I've already indicated my support for an expanded E-Verify program and better ID cards to make it more difficult for illegal aliens to gain employment in this country, dealing with the employment of illegal aliens once they have entered this country must not be part of what you consider 'border security'.

[tpfkaw]

CARL, I support the increase in the increase in the border patrol, but by and large I don't support building walls to nowhere since they only shift the problem elsewhere, not eliminate it. Since I've already indicated my support for an expanded E-Verify program and better ID cards to make it more difficult for illegal aliens to gain employment in this country, dealing with the employment of illegal aliens once they have entered this country must not be part of what you consider 'border security'.

No, "border" security happens, you know, at a border.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

No, "border" security happens, you know, at a border.

And what about the border of the border?

[tpfkaw]

No, "border" security happens, you know, at a border.

And what about the border of the border?

Confusing to Zeno, but Newton was able to figure that one out.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

No, "border" security happens, you know, at a border.

And what about the border of the border?

Confusing to Zeno, but Newton was able to figure that one out.

At least you know your limits.

[CARLHAYDEN]

CARL, I support the increase in the increase in the border patrol, but by and large I don't support building walls to nowhere since they only shift the problem elsewhere, not eliminate it. Since I've already indicated my support for an expanded E-Verify program and better ID cards to make it more difficult for illegal aliens to gain employment in this country, dealing with the employment of illegal aliens once they have entered this country must not be part of what you consider 'border security'.

No, "border" security happens, you know, at a border.

Wormguy,

Ernest is just playing stupid.

He opposes border security, but will not be honest about it.

Somehow he believes that people are stupid enough to buy his nonsense about E-verify being "border security."

[CARLHAYDEN]

CARL, I support the increase in the increase in the border patrol, but by and large I don't support building walls to nowhere since they only shift the problem elsewhere, not eliminate it. Since I've already indicated my support for an expanded E-Verify program and better ID cards to make it more difficult for illegal aliens to gain employment in this country, dealing with the employment of illegal aliens once they have entered this country must not be part of what you consider 'border security'.

Once again, please stop the lying!!!

First, there is of purpose in increasing he number of members of the border patrol is they are prevented from doing their job, which is what is happening at this time.

Second, it seems typical that opponents of border security, like YOU, always conjure up some wall.  Yes, I get it.  You are opposed to border security, and any effort at border security is automatically a wall. 

Third, I know that you are grossly ignorant about illegal entrants (even though I have posted extensively on the subject), so I'll try to explain it is simple terms for you.  Many illegal entrants do NOT seek employment from American employers but instead engage in smuggling, kidnapping, ripoffs, burglary, auto theft, etc.  So your supposed support for E-verify will do absolutely nothing about this problem.

Finally, as Mr. Lincoln once noted, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so.  As such, your assertion that E-verify is border security is simply absurd!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Many?

I don't suppose you actually have any hard data that backs your assertion that illegal immigrants are our greatest crime threat as you seem to assert?

Because here are some links to data that debunk your theory to one degree or another:

Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men
by Rubén G. Rumbaut, Roberto G. Gonzales, Golnaz Komaie, and Charlie V. Morgan
University of California, Irvine

The Myth of an “Immigrant Crime Wave” by Mike A. Males, Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice

abstract of Cross-City Evidence on the Relationship between Immigration and Crime by Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl, Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management

The handwaving that I have seen that disagrees with these asserts, and not without reason, that crime that occurs within immigrant communities is woefully under-reported.  But to the extent that is true, it has no affect on crimes against natural-born citizens.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Many?

I don't suppose you actually have any hard data that backs your assertion that illegal immigrants are our greatest crime threat as you seem to assert?

Because here are some links to data that debunk your theory to one degree or another:

Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men
by Rubén G. Rumbaut, Roberto G. Gonzales, Golnaz Komaie, and Charlie V. Morgan
University of California, Irvine

The Myth of an “Immigrant Crime Wave” by Mike A. Males, Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice

abstract of Cross-City Evidence on the Relationship between Immigration and Crime by Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl, Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management

The handwaving that I have seen that disagrees with these asserts, and not without reason, that crime that occurs within immigrant communities is woefully under-reported.  But to the extent that is true, it has no affect on crimes against natural-born citizens.

Yes, many.

Now, the feds (under both Bush and Obama) have tried to destroy data.

According to the Border Patrol, approximately forty plus per cent of all the illegal entrants they are allowed to apprehend have prior criminal convictions.

According to studies of prisoners in state and Federal facilities, they constitute over twenty per cent of the population.

Attempts are currently under way under the Safe Cities law to obtain more information on prisoners in jail, which is being fought by open borders/amnesty proponents like you.

Now, you 'see' a lot of things that just aren't there (handwaving, walls, a belief that E-Verify is a "border security" measure, etc.)

You also continue to falsely assert that all illegal aliens are "immigrants."  Why are you unable to tell the truth?

Now, if you look at your own sources, you will see that there are a couple of misrepresentations.  One being the conflating of legal aliens with illegal aliens, and the second with "second-generation" young men.

Please, please, please STOP THE LYING!

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

People always need scapegoats - and as usual, they're not even close.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You also continue to falsely assert that all illegal aliens are "immigrants."  Why are you unable to tell the truth?

Because I have not come across any actual data that allows me to distinguish between the crime rates of illegal aliens and legal aliens.  You claim to have some, so if you'd kindly provide actual sources instead of simply claiming the data are out there, I'd be more than happy to look at it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You also continue to falsely assert that all illegal aliens are "immigrants."  Why are you unable to tell the truth?

Because I have not come across any actual data that allows me to distinguish between the crime rates of illegal aliens and legal aliens.  You claim to have some, so if you'd kindly provide actual sources instead of simply claiming the data are out there, I'd be more than happy to look at it.

You'll be told to "stop lying" again, you know that, right? 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Just because the Update thread was allowed to last 330 pages too long is no reason to complain about the length of other threads.  Besides, whatever else CARL may be, I don't consider him crazy.

[Mechaman]

Just because the Update thread was allowed to last 330 pages too long is no reason to complain about the length of other threads.  Besides, whatever else CARL may be, I don't consider him crazy.

WHY WON'T YOU STOP LYING YOU OBAMANIST BORDER HATING HACK!!!!!?

I've seen you around here True Federalist, you are some real piece of work you know?  Claiming that you don't find CARL crazy when you have, by your very fancy language and rational dialogue shown that you indeed find him to be the top order of craziness.

You think you can hide from the Real Muricah boy?  You think we can't tell that you have wet dreams of conservatives and other border lovers being silenced by your beloved Obamieboy who oppose your open border dreams of animal criminals coming over here and raping our sovereignty?  Did you really think you would get away with this dishonest vile vehement oratory about how the mighty and Just Wall is a Great Harbringer of Sorrow, Despiar, and Masery!?  I've had enough of your lying lies you flithy closet mongerl liberal progressive closet socialist Islamic Atheist Marxist far left Nazi loving Jewish elitist progressive liberal radical wealth redistributionist anti-American Muslamic Ray Gun craving drug addict radical extreme homosexual Euroboy lover!

DO YOU CARE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF YOU FAKE FEDERALIST!?

And please no more lying!!!!

[CARLHAYDEN]

You also continue to falsely assert that all illegal aliens are "immigrants."  Why are you unable to tell the truth?

Because I have not come across any actual data that allows me to distinguish between the crime rates of illegal aliens and legal aliens.  You claim to have some, so if you'd kindly provide actual sources instead of simply claiming the data are out there, I'd be more than happy to look at it.

So, I repeat, are you asserting that all illegal aliens are "immigrants"?

Once again, you change the subject.

Oh, and here's one cite (which you will reject out of hand):

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html

And here's another (unfortunately its old data).  We need more recent data (which is being acquired).  Here's a recent article: http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/7d66941722094b51bb4f215a8fe4f3de/MD--Immigration-Fingerprints/

Oh, and of the 10 most wanted for murder (fbi), eight are not American.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/murders

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

CARL might have a point........browns are now more prevalent in many cities than blacks......who knew?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So, I repeat, are you asserting that all illegal aliens are "immigrants"?
Yes they are, as any one who can look up definitions in a dictionary would agree.

• immigrant n. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence

That they aren't the type of immigrants we want in this country doesn't change the meaning of the word.

Oh, and here's one cite (which you will reject out of hand):

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html

That site you've pointed me to calls them illegal immigrants and yet you get all in a huff when I've called them that. Quite a selective case of anger and outrage you have there CARL.

That page spends most of its time pointing out specific tragic instances in which illegal immigrants commit crimes.

The closest that particular page comes to actually trying to put forth a testable proposition is by using maps it makes a vague hand-waving assertion of a correlation between crime rates and % of the immigrant population that are illegal immigrants.  I hope you will agree that even if a proper correlation test was done instead of the hand-waving, it is a flawed correlation to test.  After all, if State A with a population of 1,000,000 has a population of 10 immigrants of which 5 (50%) are illegal has twice as much crime as state B with a population of 100,000 immigrants of which 10,000 (10%) are illegal, I hope you wouldn't begin to suggest that State A's crime problem is due to a higher percentage of immigrants who are illegal.  The proper correlation to test would be crime to % of the overall population that are illegal immigrants.

One opinion I suspect you will reject out of hand is this quote from that source:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's precisely why I favor revising immigration laws.  So that those who are decent hard working people that any citizen should be proud of the fact that they want to come and live and work in America can come here.  Doing so would make it much easier for us to deal with the bad actors we don't want here.

And here's another (unfortunately its old data).  We need more recent data (which is being acquired).  Here's a recent article: http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/7d66941722094b51bb4f215a8fe4f3de/MD--Immigration-Fingerprints/

Not really much data at all, and nothing to place it into context.  That said, and it likely will surprise you, I support the Secure Communities program.  The primary concern some people have about it, of it being abused by certain local jurisdictions to engage in racial profiling, doesn't trouble me that much.  Not because I don't find such abuses problematic, but because I'm certain those idiots with badges who would abuse the program would find some other way to be abusive towards minorities if Secure Communities wasn't around.

Oh, and of the 10 most wanted for murder (fbi), eight are not American.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/murders

Only one is noted as being an illegal immigrant and it is hardly surprising that people who have the ability to flee to a foreign jurisdiction might be the most difficult criminals to catch.  The Most Wanted list has never been a representative sample of criminals in general.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Ernest,

I guess its time to try to talk sense with you as you are COMPLETELY oblivious to reality.  You are the only one I know who insists that all illegal aliens are immigrants.

Please stop the lying!!!

You do NOT support the Secure Communities Act.

You have made it abundantly clear that all you are for is amnesty and open borders.

The difference between you and BRTD is BRTD openly states your true position whereas you lie!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

CARL, at this point I must conclude you are either delusional or a parody.  Possibly both.

You are the only one I know who insists that all illegal aliens are immigrants.

A google for the phrase "illegal immigrant" turns up millions of hits, including this story today from FoxNews:

Illegal Immigrant Fatally Shot, Another Wounded in Arizona

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You do NOT support the Secure Communities Act.

You have made it abundantly clear that all you are for is amnesty and open borders.

If you aren't prepared to believe when I tell you what measures I do and do not support, I don't really see much point in continuing to converse with you.  I may still from time to time point out your distortions, half-truths and innuendos, but clearly conversation with you is clearly pointless.

The difference between you and BRTD is BRTD openly states your true position whereas you lie!

Believe it or not (and I suspect you will choose to not believe it) there is not a vast left-wing conspiracy to open the borders.  And if there was, I certainly would not want to be part of the same conspiracy as BRTD.  For one thing, I don't think being a jungle revolutionary automatically makes a girl hot.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I would love to listen to CARL's radio show......who is with me? 

[CARLHAYDEN]

April 21, 2011

California's criminal alien population rises

The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.

http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2011/04/californias-criminal-alien-pop.html