Santorum goes Crusading

[Smash255]

What a psycho

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50054.html

[Landslide Lyndon]

[Marokai Backbeat]

Everyone being created equal is a Christian value? What?

Talk about being "anti-historical."

[Zarn]

The series of Crusades was complex where both sides were right and both sides were wrong.

[Brittain33]

It's historically inaccurate to see the Crusades as purely Christianity vs. Islam, although that was the main theme.

Crusaders also massacred Jews up and down the Rhine Valley and sacked Byzantium in the early 1200s. It's a detail that's part of the bigger picture. I think Santorum would benefit from examining all angles of the crusades, not just "they were a good thing with good intentions."

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Always love it when people turn into cruel parodies of themselves.

[Torie]

It's historically inaccurate to see the Crusades as purely Christianity vs. Islam, although that was the main theme.

Crusaders also massacred Jews up and down the Rhine Valley and sacked Byzantium in the early 1200s. It's a detail that's part of the bigger picture. I think Santorum would benefit from examining all angles of the crusades, not just "they were a good thing with good intentions."

I challenge Santorum to repeat what he said after reading this book by my pal William Bernstein. After reading the saga of the Crusades, and then what the Portuguese did under the guise of religious fanaticism when they launched their quest for riches under the banner of the cross, you almost wish God had sent Jesus to some other planet to save souls.

[Zarn]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Everyone being created equal is a Christian value? What?

Talk about being "anti-historical."

Ah, yes. I forgot the part where equality is an atheistic value. Thanks for reminding the rest of us.

[memphis]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

As if the Left doesn't have a victim complex...

[memphis]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

As if the Left doesn't have a victim complex...

With the exception of blacks, who after all the crap they've gone through are entitled to feel like victims (though it can be extremely counter-productrive), not at all. Victimization is a seminal article of consertvative faith. Sarah Palin's groaning about being silenced. The annual War on Christmas. It's just so hard to be a white Christian in America today with all the taxes and gays and the tv. Really, it's the most basic part of GOP rhetoric, inseperable from their ideology. Without it, they'd have nothing. Tax cuts for richers don't sell themselves.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

As if the Left doesn't have a victim complex...

With the exception of blacks, who after all the crap they've gone through are entitled to feel like victims (though it can be extremely counter-productrive), not at all. Victimization is a seminal article of consertvative faith. Sarah Palin's groaning about being silenced. The annual War on Christmas. It's just so hard to be a white Christian in America today with all the taxes and gays and the tv. Really, it's the most basic part of GOP rhetoric, inseperable from their ideology. Without it, they'd have nothing. Tax cuts for richers don't sell themselves.

Why does every liberal (and if not every, then apparently you) think that this is not just the main piece of Conservative economics, but in fact the entire thing? Somewhere, most likely from the Bush tax cuts, the idea popped up that the only thing a Republican or Conservative might do for the economy is cut taxes for the rich.

Also, on matters of the victim complex, I seem to recall that Liberals love to blame everything on Bush, the rich, the evil companies trying to exploit the working man, and the horrible Conservatives who want to crush all culture and all races except white Christian straight Americans. You act like every Republican is George Wallace on social issues and George Bush on economics, and that's portrayed by your response.

[Brittain33]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

The truth has a liberal bias, Colbert said.

I don't care to demonize individuals from the 11th century who were behaving as people tend to do when given leeway to kill others and told there were bad people within swords' reach. It's ugly but that's human nature. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an honest discussion of the facts and history of the Crusades without being accused of "demonizing" individuals for not taking an unrealistic sunshine-y view of an ugly episode in human history.

My ancestry is Ashkenazi Jewish. A lot of my ancestors' relatives were surely killed by crusaders--maybe some direct ancestors themselves if they were old enough to have children.

[memphis]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

As if the Left doesn't have a victim complex...

With the exception of blacks, who after all the crap they've gone through are entitled to feel like victims (though it can be extremely counter-productrive), not at all. Victimization is a seminal article of consertvative faith. Sarah Palin's groaning about being silenced. The annual War on Christmas. It's just so hard to be a white Christian in America today with all the taxes and gays and the tv. Really, it's the most basic part of GOP rhetoric, inseperable from their ideology. Without it, they'd have nothing. Tax cuts for richers don't sell themselves.

Why does every liberal (and if not every, then apparently you) think that this is not just the main piece of Conservative economics, but in fact the entire thing? Somewhere, most likely from the Bush tax cuts, the idea popped up that the only thing a Republican or Conservative might do for the economy is cut taxes for the rich.

That's the only thing the GOP ever proposes "for the economy." Hating poors is because "we can't afford it," right?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Good to see that the right's victim complex is alive and well.

As if the Left doesn't have a victim complex...

With the exception of blacks, who after all the crap they've gone through are entitled to feel like victims (though it can be extremely counter-productrive), not at all. Victimization is a seminal article of consertvative faith. Sarah Palin's groaning about being silenced. The annual War on Christmas. It's just so hard to be a white Christian in America today with all the taxes and gays and the tv. Really, it's the most basic part of GOP rhetoric, inseperable from their ideology. Without it, they'd have nothing. Tax cuts for richers don't sell themselves.

Why does every liberal (and if not every, then apparently you) think that this is not just the main piece of Conservative economics, but in fact the entire thing? Somewhere, most likely from the Bush tax cuts, the idea popped up that the only thing a Republican or Conservative might do for the economy is cut taxes for the rich.

That's the only thing the GOP ever proposes "for the economy." Hating poors is because "we can't afford it," right?

What makes you think the GOP hates poors? (and yeah, I know what you mean, I'm trying to see your reaction)

[Zarn]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

The truth has a liberal bias, Colbert said.

I don't care to demonize individuals from the 11th century who were behaving as people tend to do when given leeway to kill others and told there were bad people within swords' reach. It's ugly but that's human nature. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an honest discussion of the facts and history of the Crusades without being accused of "demonizing" individuals for not taking an unrealistic sunshine-y view of an ugly episode in human history.

My ancestry is Ashkenazi Jewish. A lot of my ancestors' relatives were surely killed by crusaders--maybe some direct ancestors themselves if they were old enough to have children.

The very fact that you wished to lump the Crusaders into one category is demonization and a stereotype. I blame multiple parties, but there were people fighting for good things. These people were not exclusive to one religion. You can kindly kiss my Catholic rear end.

[Brittain33]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

The truth has a liberal bias, Colbert said.

I don't care to demonize individuals from the 11th century who were behaving as people tend to do when given leeway to kill others and told there were bad people within swords' reach. It's ugly but that's human nature. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an honest discussion of the facts and history of the Crusades without being accused of "demonizing" individuals for not taking an unrealistic sunshine-y view of an ugly episode in human history.

My ancestry is Ashkenazi Jewish. A lot of my ancestors' relatives were surely killed by crusaders--maybe some direct ancestors themselves if they were old enough to have children.

The very fact that you wished to lump the Crusaders into one category is demonization and a stereotype. I blame multiple parties, but there were people fighting for good things. These people were not exclusive to one religion. You can kindly kiss my Catholic rear end.

Sorry if "the good things" aren't obvious to me and that you prefer confrontation to reasoning. If you could make the case for the awesomeness of the Crusades while acknowledging the bad things, that would be a start--or you could just tell people to kiss your ass.

[Brittain33]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I was responding to your post in which you introduced the concept of "the Crusaders."

Go back to my first post, I didn't lump them in--I said "Crusaders."

You've got your own issues here you're projecting onto me. I'm not playing some kind of game where discussing the Crusades is an attack on your faith and I'm some ridiculous caricature of a zealot. Sorry. 

[Zarn]

The fact that people here decided to now demonize the crusaders is just as telling.

The truth has a liberal bias, Colbert said.

I don't care to demonize individuals from the 11th century who were behaving as people tend to do when given leeway to kill others and told there were bad people within swords' reach. It's ugly but that's human nature. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an honest discussion of the facts and history of the Crusades without being accused of "demonizing" individuals for not taking an unrealistic sunshine-y view of an ugly episode in human history.

My ancestry is Ashkenazi Jewish. A lot of my ancestors' relatives were surely killed by crusaders--maybe some direct ancestors themselves if they were old enough to have children.

The very fact that you wished to lump the Crusaders into one category is demonization and a stereotype. I blame multiple parties, but there were people fighting for good things. These people were not exclusive to one religion. You can kindly kiss my Catholic rear end.

Sorry if "the good things" aren't obvious to me and that you prefer confrontation to reasoning. If you could make the case for the awesomeness of the Crusades while acknowledging the bad things, that would be a start--or you could just tell people to kiss your ass.

Protecting pilgrims and others
The Templars and others that actually worked together with Muslims in order to have peace
Stopping the encroachment of Muslims into Christian lands

Protecting their own people
Some did work with Christians for the purpose of peace
Protecting their lands

Just three things with two different perspectives of the top of my head...

Many people would not dream of hurting anyone unarmed and even cringed at the thought of having to kill in battle. These people are being lumped together with those who have committed acts against unarmed people and thought they were going to Heaven for it.

[Brittain33]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

[Zarn]

[Brittain33]

Why the confusion? I never claimed that the Crusades were all bad nor that the intentions were completely bad--only that a lot of bad things happened as part of them, really bad things, and also that it wasn't just Muslims who have reason to feel estranged from them.

[DrScholl]

Rick needs help, he appears to have completely lost all sense.

[RI]

Everyone being created equal is a Christian value? What?

That's pretty much the basis of Catholic teaching, at the very least...