The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Sbane]

BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)?

[krazen1211]

BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)?

For one thing, the company can't collect compulsory dues out of a paycheck of someone who is not in the company with the protection of law.

[Sbane]

BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)?

For one thing, the company can't collect compulsory dues out of a paycheck of someone who is not in the company with the protection of law.

That money is coming from somewhere. Why could it not go into my paycheck instead of some politician's pockets?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Can anyone please explain how they have been personally negatively affected by public sector unions?

[Sbane]

Can anyone please explain how they have been personally negatively affected by public sector unions?

Higher taxes?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yeah public sector unions obviously drive up taxes way higher than companies that abuse loopholes in the system to pay no corporate tax. No question.

[Sounder]

This is a complete power grab by the Republicans who want to neuter the union's influence in elections.

Can't you see that is the problem?  That is why public sector labor cartels need to be illegal.   FDR was smart enough to foresee the problem they would cause.  To protect workers, have voluntary worker associations.

[Sbane]

Yeah public sector unions obviously drive up taxes way higher than companies that abuse loopholes in the system to pay no corporate tax. No question.

Both do of course. And that is only when the unions recieve bloated benefits, which isn't true in a lot of cases. But in a lot of places the unions are to blame.

[Sbane]

This is a complete power grab by the Republicans who want to neuter the union's influence in elections.

Can't you see that is the problem?  That is why public sector labor cartels need to be illegal.   FDR was smart enough to foresee the problem they would cause.  To protect workers, have voluntary worker associations.

I would like to end the influence of corporations and unions on elections. Are you with me?

[Dgov]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true?  Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation.  It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close.

[cinyc]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

This IS about budgets, particularly state and local ones.  It always has been:

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675

[Sounder]

I would like to end the influence of corporations and unions on elections. Are you with me?

YES!  The way to do that is to reduce the influence of government.   The more power and money government has, the more unions and corporations will be willing to pay to play.  Time to return power to the people.  End corporate monopolies (and subsidies) and end labor cartels.  

[krazen1211]

That money is coming from somewhere. Why could it not go into my paycheck instead of some politician's pockets?

Hmm? That's what I've been wondering.

The unions in many states can collect dues from any worker they want, even workers who do not want to be in a union. The unions then funnel that money into politician's pockets. Why could it not go into his paycheck instead of some politician's pockets?

They also enjoy immunity from antitrust. Any corporation other than Major League Baseball would love that kind of power.

[Smash255]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true?  Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation.  It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close.

Any legislation that has any budgetary or fiscal impact whatsoever can't be passed through this procedural gimmick, and must first have a quorum present.  By going around the quorum requirements the GOP is admitting that CBR has no budgetary impacts or any fiscal impacts of any kind, otherwise they could not have held the vote.  Not to mention the vote was illegal anyway since it broke open meetings laws.

[Smash255]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

This IS about budgets, particularly state and local ones.  It always has been:

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675

Its NOT about budgets, its about Union breaking.  Based off how this passed it is NOT about budgets.  They took the legislation off of the budget rules to get around the quorum rules.    The quorum rules are also in effect for any legislation related to the budget or anything fiscal.  So by voting on this and bypassing the quorum rules, they are admitting that CBR has no fiscal or budget impact whatsoever, otherwise they could not bypass the quorum rules and could not vote on it.

[cinyc]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true?  Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation.  It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close.

Any legislation that has any budgetary or fiscal impact whatsoever can't be passed through this procedural gimmick, and must first have a quorum present.  By going around the quorum requirements the GOP is admitting that CBR has no budgetary impacts or any fiscal impacts of any kind, otherwise they could not have held the vote.  Not to mention the vote was illegal anyway since it broke open meetings laws.

Incorrect.  The supermajority requirement applies to "any law which imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state".  

It does not apply, for example to a revocation of an appropriation - which has a budget impact, or a law that foists or removes an unfunded mandate on a county or local government - which has a budget impact on those municipalities, or a law that changes the collective bargaining process so that, down the road, it has a budget impact when work rules are changed.

[Lief 🗽]

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.

[MasterJedi]

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.

Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people!

[Lief 🗽]

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.

Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people!

The healthcare bill that was debated for nearly a full year? The one based on past Republican proposals? The one where Obama and the Democrats bended over backwards to moderate Republicans trying to include them in negotiations? The one where members of the public were allowed in the House and Senate chambers to see the votes on the legislation? That one?

And despite all that, it still hurt the Democrats, which is the point I was making in the post you quoted.

[MasterJedi]

I think what people need to understand is this bill was guarenteed to pass no matter how much debate took place. If it would have made the Democrats happy they could have debated it for 3 months, ignored them anyways and then still passed it with them there. Nothing the Democrats could have done would stop this part of the bill from passing.

Now the question is are they going to come back or let a lot of the state government be shut down until 2012 when they might have a chance to win back some seats, but probably only enough to have everything be about even in the senate. How do you think the voters will feel about them staying out of state for a year and a half and not doing their jobs? Well at least they won't get paid for doing it though frankly everone should get a 50% pay cut in elected office.

[cinyc]

To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153

Game.  Set.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I think what people need to understand is this bill was guarenteed to pass no matter how much debate took place. If it would have made the Democrats happy they could have debated it for 3 months, ignored them anyways and then still passed it with them there. Nothing the Democrats could have done would stop this part of the bill from passing.

Now the question is are they going to come back or let a lot of the state government be shut down until 2012 when they might have a chance to win back some seats, but probably only enough to have everything be about even in the senate. How do you think the voters will feel about them staying out of state for a year and a half and not doing their jobs? Well at least they won't get paid for doing it though frankly everone should get a 50% pay cut in elected office.

Well, if Republicans are going to pass whatever they please ignoring everybody else, then why should the Democrats return to Wisconsin? They might as well take a vacation at Illinois and return when the other party's senators and governor start acting like adults again.  

[The Dowager Mod]

Never been on strike before, hope the weathers good.

[DrScholl]

The healthcare bill that was debated for nearly a full year? The one based on past Republican proposals? The one where Obama and the Democrats bended over backwards to moderate Republicans trying to include them in negotiations? The one where members of the public were allowed in the House and Senate chambers to see the votes on the legislation? That one?

And despite all that, it still hurt the Democrats, which is the point I was making in the post you quoted.

It also included a lot of Republican amendments that were introduced over the long period of debate.

[Smash255]

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.

Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people!

That bill was up for over a year, and Obama actually campaigned on something very similar, not to mention the GOP proposals.

This wasn't campaigned on, not to mention they sidestepped actual laws, broke the open meetings laws.  Not to mention they flat out LIED about this having anything to do with the budget or the deficit.