Egyptians can't be trusted with democracy

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

From a Pew poll on views held by Egyptians:
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

30% have a favorable view of Hezb'allah

49% have a positive view of Hamas

20% have a positive view of al Qaeda (72% have a negative view)

19% have a positive view of Osama bin Laden

48% say Islam plays a large role in their country's political life

85% consider Islamic influence over political life to be a positive thing for their country

61% see no struggle between those who want to modernize their country and Islamic fundamentalists

54% support making gender segregation in the workplace the law in their country

82% endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery

77% support whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery

84% support the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion

59% say democracy is preferable to any other kind of government

20% support suicide bombing in defense of Islam

46% say suicide bombings are never justified

61% express concern about Islamic extremism in their country

[Iosif]

Only people who agree with America deserve democracy.

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

Only people who agree with America deserve democracy.

Oh come on. 80+% supporting death penalty for adultery and apostasy? That's Medieval Europe-level primitive that is. Would you trust the publics of Medieval Europe with a democracy? Of course not.

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

If the public of my country, Australia, held such primitive views as supporting death penalty for adultery and apostasy by such overwhelming margins, I would want us to be stripped of our democracy as well.

[Silent Hunter]

Why don't we actually see who wins the elections first?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yes, a lot of Egyptians are bigots. If their "secularist" leaders had cared a bit more about making their lifes better and allowing them to access knowledge, instead of caring only about their own interests, maybe they wouldn't be so bigoted.

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

Yes, a lot of Egyptians are bigots. If their "secularist" leaders had cared a bit more about making their lifes better and allowing them to access knowledge, instead of caring only about their own interests, maybe they wouldn't be so bigoted.

That's a bullsh**t excuse. Egypt's standard of living is less sh**tty then that suffered by Sub-Saharan Africa, India and much of Latin America... yet the majority of citizens in the countries of those regions don't hold so overwhelmingly backwards attitudes.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Why don't we actually see who wins the elections first?

I agree. Those Egyptian poll numbers are pretty similar to those from Pakistan. The last Pakistani elections were won by a secular (socialist) party. Let's refrain from using faulty logic here.

[Lief 🗽]

Well neither can Americans but somehow the world allows them to keep electing idiots. And the Italians have elected a known criminal over and over again! We should take away their democracy too. Not to mention the nearly 20% Le Penn received in France. It seems the French can't be trusted either...

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

Well neither can Americans but somehow the world allows them to keep electing idiots. And the Italians have elected a known criminal over and over again! We should take away their democracy too. Not to mention the nearly 20% Le Penn received in France. It seems the French can't be trusted either...

Eh, Le Penn and the Tea Partiers are awful yes. But they look like far-left liberals in contrast to Egypt's public consensus. And America has a Supreme Court to intervene when things get too retarded(if only one of the conservative justices would die and be replaced through use of the nuclear option in the senate then it could start fulfilling that function properly again).

As for Italy, I would agree that some sort of temporary suspension is needed to undo Mussoli... I mean Berlusconi's "rigging"(if I may understate it) of the system.

[Beet]

Rockingham brings up some serious points. What exactly would 'Egyptian democracy' look like? Would it be where you see people getting the death penalty for 'blasphemy' or leaving the Muslim religion? Would the peace treaty with Israel be in jeopardy? Would there be Iran-style stoning sentences? What about the civil rights of the Coptic Christian minority? Are we about to see a ass exodus of this minority as the Yemenese Jews in the last century? Perhaps even more basically, would a democratic government be able to maintain stability? Will we see the return of 1990's style terrorism? These are all very important questions, and this is quite a scary time.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I would take offensive to calling such actions primitive. You can use twitter and support the stoning of people to death for adultery. We all know this by now. There is no contradiction here. (Perhaps in a future democratic Egypt they will show the stonings on youtube?)

Needless to say, I don´t trust this poll.

Anyway, Rockingham tell me what you preferred solution to the Egyptian situation is considering now that you have noted that don´t hold significantly advanced (whatever that means) opinions to have a democracy (who does really?).

[opebo]

Would it be where you see people getting the death penalty for 'blasphemy' or leaving the Muslim religion? yes Would the peace treaty with Israel be in jeopardy? yes Would there be Iran-style stoning sentences? yes What about the civil rights of the Coptic Christian minority?gone  Are we about to see a ass exodus of this minority as the Yemenese Jews in the last century?yes  Perhaps even more basically, would a democratic government be able to maintain stability? who cares? Will we see the return of 1990's style terrorism? Tyes

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

Why don't we actually see who wins the elections first?

I agree. Those Egyptian poll numbers are pretty similar to those from Pakistan. The last Pakistani elections were won by a secular (socialist) party. Let's refrain from using faulty logic here.

The extent to which those policies are not being enacted is the extent to which Pakistan's "democracy" is not in fact democratic; which is of course a good thing in this context.

[The Mikado]

You know, after reading Discipline and Punish, I really have to question the assumption that corporal punishment (public stoning, chopping hands off, etc.) is really more "barbaric" and "primitive" than the penal system.  It actually is better in many ways.

[Hash]

Only people who agree with America deserve democracy.

And preferably they should be white Christians, and elections only count if a party approved by America wins or else it doesn't count.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You know, after reading Discipline and Punish, I really have to question the assumption that corporal punishment (public stoning, chopping hands off, etc.) is really more "barbaric" and "primitive" than the penal system.  It actually is better in many ways.

This is also a good point.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would take offensive to calling such actions primitive. You can use twitter and support the stoning of people to death for adultery. We all know this by now. There is no contradiction here. (Perhaps in a future democratic Egypt they will show the stonings on youtube?)

You can be technologically modern and still ideologically archaic. Though in this case I wouldn't call it primitive, but subhuman.

Yes, a lot of Egyptians are bigots. If their "secularist" leaders had cared a bit more about making their lifes better and allowing them to access knowledge, instead of caring only about their own interests, maybe they wouldn't be so bigoted.

That's a bullsh**t excuse. Egypt's standard of living is less sh**tty then that suffered by Sub-Saharan Africa, India and much of Latin America... yet the majority of citizens in the countries of those regions don't hold so overwhelmingly backwards attitudes.

Yeah, sub-saharan Africans are sooooooo tolerant.
And it's not only an issue of standards of living. India has been a democracy for 60 years, and so there "democracy" actually means something. Not only elections but also civil liberties and tolerance (you might argue this isn't entirely true ; indeed, nor it is in the USA or in France).

[The Mikado]

So...why is democracy incompatible with stoning, chopping people's hands off, etc?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Well neither can Americans but somehow the world allows them to keep electing idiots. And the Italians have elected a known criminal over and over again! We should take away their democracy too. Not to mention the nearly 20% Le Penn received in France. It seems the French can't be trusted either...

Eh, Le Penn and the Tea Partiers are awful yes. But they look like far-left liberals in contrast to Egypt's public consensus. And America has a Supreme Court to intervene when things get too retarded(if only one of the conservative justices would die and be replaced through use of the nuclear option in the senate then it could start fulfilling that function properly again).

As for Italy, I would agree that some sort of temporary suspension is needed to undo Mussoli... I mean Berlusconi's "rigging"(if I may understate it) of the system.

One of the liberals in the US SCOTUS must go. The Roe v Wade dinosaur must be hit with the comet of the 10th and 14th Amendments

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

when you say Egyptians can't be trusted with democracy, what form of government can they be trusted with? what reason do you have to believe that another form of government will respect human rights any better?

[opebo]

when you say Egyptians can't be trusted with democracy, what form of government can they be trusted with? what reason do you have to believe that another form of government will respect human rights any better?

One far-away, disinterested potentate is always more conducive to personal freedom than a million little dictators right next door.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Why don't we actually see who wins the elections first?

I agree. Those Egyptian poll numbers are pretty similar to those from Pakistan. The last Pakistani elections were won by a secular (socialist) party. Let's refrain from using faulty logic here.

The extent to which those policies are not being enacted is the extent to which Pakistan's "democracy" is not in fact democratic; which is of course a good thing in this context.

So you're trying to say that Egypt will likely become *more democratic* than Pakistan in the near future and hence it will turn Islamist?

Well, I neither agree with the first nor the second part of this theory.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Much to deal with in this thread; but that can wait. For now... um... you all do realise that the Mubarak regime promoted (in various different ways) Islam of the sort you all recoil from and was probably responsible for some of the attacks on the Copts?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Much to deal with in this thread; but that can wait. For now... um... you all do realise that the Mubarak regime promoted (in various different ways) Islam of the sort you all recoil from and was probably responsible for some of the attacks on the Copts?

I tried to point that out in the other thread when I mentioned that Egypt already has sharia law to some extent.