France 2012: the official thread

[Gustaf]

Actually the 'serial seducer' thing isn't necessarily sexist, it's just not in line with the ideal  heterosexual (though nowadays homosexual goes as well) , monogamous relationship as preached by bourgeois morality. It's certainly not something I frown upon.

On the whole France doesn't strike me as very 'sexist'. It's certainly less so than Italy or Spain. On the whole France is pretty much your archetypical Western European (Contintal) Liberal Democracy. (From now on I'll refer to these nations as WELDs)

I was more focused on women being afraid of being alone with him or the whole lord of the manor thing.

I'm not big on feminism or structuralist analyses but the patterns of "serial seducing" in this context is clearly an expression of sexism.

But I'll agree that Italy is certainly more sexist. But it is, on the other hand, a pretty extreme case.

[Sam Spade]

So they put him in Rikers!  I'm amazed.

Now he'll get some action there too, but of a different sort.  lolololol

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/IMF-Chief-Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-Sexual-Assault-France-NYC-121892809.html

[Lief 🗽]

I'd argue that calling "serial seducers" sexist is the actual sexism in this case. You act like the women they seduce are brainless/defenseless and can't think for themselves... "won't someone step in and protect these dumb little girls from the mean old men tricking them into sex!" As long as everyone involved is consenting to whatever is happening, you really can't lump "seducers" or "charmers" in with "gropers" and "rapists."

Obviously French society doesn't see a huge problem with not sticking to the traditional puritanical conception of monogamy. That doesn't mean they're all rapists and misogynists.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If he is guilty, then he has no future anyway, but fleeing back to France could keep him out of jail.

How? Can't he be extradited to the States?

I doubt he'd be any more extraditable than Polanski has been these past few decades, and he wasn't merely accused of a sex crime, he was convicted of it.  However if France wants to trade DSK for Polanski, I'd be willing to accept that deal.

[Хahar 🤔]

If I came up with half the cockamamie theories about American politicians who commit crimes that are being made by the French and certain posters on this forum to explain how he's not guilty, I'd be laughed off the forum immediately.

Besides, why do certain leftist posters want to defend some rich banker who heads an organization that regularly screws poor countries and poor people for their own benefit?  Hilarious, if you ask me.

As I said before - innocent until proven guilty.  But this ain't some minority in the Bronx being prosecuted - the cops will be quite careful here.

Spade appears to make the most sense out of anyone here.

[big bad fab]

As I'm a "French poster", I must say one thing:

please understand that it's first hard to believe (despite DSK's own past, but a past "only" of divorces, mistresses and adulteries, not of violence)
because precisely it's DSK.
You, non-French, don't know him for years and years (as for me, I've been aware of him and his political career since... 1985 !).

When you are "used", "accustomed" to a person, especially when it's a media star and so when you think (wrongly) that you know him at least a bit,
it's difficult to believe such a thing.

And, what is more, for political fans, the political consequences are so huge that 24 hours aren't really an eternity to begin to acknowledge that it may be true.

I'm a French social conservative, which is almost an extinct species in France , and a UMP member, so you can't believe I'm biased towards DSK...

FTR, even Christine Boutin, head of the small Christian-Democrat Party, first believed in a conspiracy...

My own first reaction was to think about a fake accusation by a woman who wanted money, just that, because, very often, reasons of events are prosaic.

With all the past elements now revealed in French medias, especially in left medias, it's very likely that he is guilty.

When you see that a French socialist MP, Filipetti, said in 2007 that she was cautious not to be alone with DSK in the same room, well... it's done... and it's of course utterly disgusting, as rape is among the nastiest of tortures.

[big bad fab]

Back to business, the only interesting one here

Harris Interactive poll for Le Parisien, 15-16 May 2011, sample 802
on socialist primaries

Let's be careful, the sample is tiny, but still, the gap is huge:

among the socialists / among the whole left
Hollande 49 / 37
Aubry 23 / 22
Royal 10 / 14
Montebourg 1 / 4
Valls 3 / 2
nobe of them 14 / 21

Considering the socialists are the most likely to vote, this is good for Hollande.
Let's hope Royal will mess some things around, forcing Aubry to deal with lil' quarrels inside the party and Hollande will be safe.

(great news ! )

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities. A person who is presumed innocent shouldn't be exposed to the media the way he has been. He has the right, as any other person, to privacy.

Of course, for all the media throughout the world, he is already guilty. The American public is ready to lynch him and its elected (what a failure !) judicial officers are following it. It is clear that everybody is jumping on this occasion to humiliate a man because he is rich, "powerful", and maybe also because he is French.

French culture might have its defects, but there is also somehting wrong in the American one.

For French-speakers, listen to Bernard-Henri Lévy and Robert Badinter on France inter. http://sites.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/ev/fiche.php?ev_id=1762

[Gustaf]

I'd argue that calling "serial seducers" sexist is the actual sexism in this case. You act like the women they seduce are brainless/defenseless and can't think for themselves... "won't someone step in and protect these dumb little girls from the mean old men tricking them into sex!" As long as everyone involved is consenting to whatever is happening, you really can't lump "seducers" or "charmers" in with "gropers" and "rapists."

Obviously French society doesn't see a huge problem with not sticking to the traditional puritanical conception of monogamy. That doesn't mean they're all rapists and misogynists.

Lol. Calling the nineteenth century slave trade racist is the real racism. You act like the black people enslaved were defenseless and needed protection against the powerful white people. There were white slaves too, you know.

PS: the article lumped the terms together, not me. Presumably because the distinction is very fine in a sexist society.

It would rather seem that French society doesn't see a huge problem with sticking to the traditional concept of women not having much of a right to their own body. You could always look up when women got the right to vote there. Anyway, I still haven't called all French misogynist rapists. But just like the article in the Guardian (and a big article in Sweden's leading morning paper today) argue there seem to be a culture of it being all right for powerful men to use and abuse women. That allows misogynist rapists to get away with it more easily.

[Gustaf]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities. A person who is presumed innocent shouldn't be exposed to the media the way he has been. He has the right, as any other person, to privacy.

Of course, for all the media throughout the world, he is already guilty. The American public is ready to lynch him and its elected (what a failure !) judicial officers are following it. It is clear that everybody is jumping on this occasion to humiliate a man because he is rich, "powerful", and maybe also because he is French.

French culture might have its defects, but there is also somehting wrong in the American one.

For French-speakers, listen to Bernard-Henri Lévy and Robert Badinter on France inter. http://sites.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/ev/fiche.php?ev_id=1762

Are you calling all Americans defective now? What bigotry!

And I can't say I'm seeing much "horrendous brutality". Of course, if one is used to living the life of the noblesse oblige with the taxpayers picking up the tab a prison cell is going to seem like an insult, but equality before the law applies even to famous people.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities.

He's been treated no differently to any other suspect in a sex offence case... actually, that's not true. Some poor black teenager from the projects would certainly be treated in a far more 'brutal' manner in a case with charges like this one. Someone on the news this morning mentioned that while he's in Rikers Island, he's being kept on his own. Most inmates there aren't so lucky.

Basically this side of things is a typical cultural disconnect. In America it is normal to parade suspects in front of cameras in their cuffs; that this has happened to DSK is not evidence of unusually brutal treatment or of an attempt to humiliate France. Americans are a theatrical people, that's all.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities.

He's been treated no differently to any other suspect in a sex offence case... actually, that's not true. Some poor black teenager from the projects would certainly be treated in a far more 'brutal' manner in a case with charges like this one. Someone on the news this morning mentioned that while he's in Rikers Island, he's being kept on his own. Most inmates there aren't so lucky.

Basically this side of things is a typical cultural disconnect. In America it is normal to parade suspects in front of cameras in their cuffs; that this has happened to DSK is not evidence of unusually brutal treatment or of an attempt to humiliate France. Americans are a theatrical people, that's all.

Maybe, but it's still something extremely humiliating to do to someone who is still presumed innocent. In France, it is actually illegal, fortunately. And I have still to understand why in the world the caution was denied. All this seems to be made in order to show how ruthless the justice is toward powerful people. Except that this isn't a "fair treatment", because being seen handcuffed is not the sma thing when you are the IMF director than when you're just some random guy. Discretion is perfectly normal in thoses case, it's by no way "favoritism".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Maybe, but it's still something extremely humiliating to do to someone who is still presumed innocent. In France, it is actually illegal, fortunately.

That is exactly what I meant by a 'cultural disconnect'. The American legal system and its traditions happens to be very, very different from the French legal system; these differences are just that (differences and traditions) rather than a calculated snub of any kind.

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Bail? Because obvious flight risk is obvious.

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Isn't that the point of equality before the law?

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Don't understand this position; could you elaborate?

[Gustaf]

Maybe, but it's still something extremely humiliating to do to someone who is still presumed innocent. In France, it is actually illegal, fortunately.

That is exactly what I meant by a 'cultural disconnect'. The American legal system and its traditions happens to be very, very different from the French legal system; these differences are just that (differences and traditions) rather than a calculated snub of any kind.

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Bail? Because obvious flight risk is obvious.

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Isn't that the point of equality before the law?

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Don't understand this position; could you elaborate?

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

The sad thing is that you seem to be serious... Since you are so sure about the moral superiority of your position, why do you even bother responding to the obnoxious people who disagree with you ?

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Might be that, yes. It doesn't make it any more legitimate to me.

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That's a good one. He was as likely to flee as I am to become the Pope. And anyways the authorities had all the means to keep him under control. This has been done for only two possible reasons : for the sake of humiliating an evil powerful bastard or for that of showing to the public how the justice doesn't make any favor to an evil powerful bastard. In any case, it goes against justice and decency.

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Except that this isn't equality before the law. Because he is famous, the impact of his being publicly shown handcuffed has nothing to do with what it would be for a random guy. The mediatic impact changes everything. A random guy accused of rape attempt doesn't get dozens of cameras filming him, doesn't get his face portrayed in every newspaper, doesn't get publicly lynched like DSK was. In order to ensure equality, yes, some more discretion is needed. That's something pretty evident to see.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's a good one. He was as likely to flee as I am to become the Pope.

Congratulations your holiness.

Again, I don't understand your position at all... he's not an American citizen, he was apprehended on a plane as it was about to take off, he is not a native English speaker and risks spending a considerable amount of time in an American prison, he had previously lived the high life for decades and risks spending a considerable amount of time in prison... and so on and so forth. If such a person is not a flight risk, then who is?

I think I should make it clear that I had nothing against DSK up until this point; he was actually my preferred candidate to take on Sarkozy on the totally cynical basis that he seemed to be (by far!) the strongest possibility to get him out.

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Or because they were worried that he'd pull a Polanski.

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How is being treated - more or less - in the way that any other suspect in this sort of case would be treated anything other than an example of equality before the law?

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No one in America knows who DSK is. But I suppose he is clearly the real victim here, not the person he (may have) attacked or the other people that he (may have) attacked over the years.

[Gustaf]

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

The sad thing is that you seem to be serious... Since you are so sure about the moral superiority of your position, why do you even bother responding to the obnoxious people who disagree with you ?

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Might be that, yes. It doesn't make it any more legitimate to me.

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That's a good one. He was as likely to flee as I am to become the Pope. And anyways the authorities had all the means to keep him under control. This has been done for only two possible reasons : for the sake of humiliating an evil powerful bastard or for that of showing to the public how the justice doesn't make any favor to an evil powerful bastard. In any case, it goes against justice and decency.

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Except that this isn't equality before the law. Because he is famous, the impact of his being publicly shown handcuffed has nothing to do with what it would be for a random guy. The mediatic impact changes everything. A random guy accused of rape attempt doesn't get dozens of cameras filming him, doesn't get his face portrayed in every newspaper, doesn't get publicly lynched like DSK was. In order to ensure equality, yes, some more discretion is needed. That's something pretty evident to see.

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

And I'd say the sad thing is that you seem to be serious - poor, poor DSK who will have to briefly leave his $3000 suites and international top meetings.

It's really amazing how the left can throw all their principles and ideals over board when it comes to worshiping aristocratic leaders.

[Antonio the Sixth]

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Fleeing for him would be like admitting his guiltiness, and thus authomatically becoming one of the most hated person in the world. Wherever he goes, he would almost certainly be extraded, if only due to popular pressure. And even if he weren't, he couldn't in any way "live the high life" anymore, his goods would probably be frozen and all this. If he considers that he has decent chances be acquitted (and he has, independently from his innocence : he can still be acquitted on benefit of the doubt).
And anyways, as I've said, the police still could easily keep him under control outside of jail. Assigning him a residence should have been enough.

And since you're mentioning Polanski, let's say once for all than the two affairs have absolutely nothing in common. One was an artist (not the same kind of "popularity"), the procedure was not at the same point, and his culpability was undoubted. Comparing the two affairs is pretty demagogic.

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Maybe they didn't knew it 3 days ago, now they do. And anyways the same happens in France (even though media seem a bit more measured, for what I've heard) and in the rest of the world.

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If he is innocent, yes, he is the victim of a horrendous slander and of an excessively brutal treatment.

[Verily]

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Fleeing for him would be like admitting his guiltiness, and thus authomatically becoming one of the most hated person in the world. Wherever he goes, he would almost certainly be extraded, if only due to popular pressure. And even if he weren't, he couldn't in any way "live the high life" anymore, his goods would probably be frozen and all this. If he considers that he has decent chances be acquitted (and he has, independently from his innocence : he can still be acquitted on benefit of the doubt).
And anyways, as I've said, the police still could easily keep him under control outside of jail. Assigning him a residence should have been enough.

He was fleeing the country when he was arrested. I don't see how you think this means he wouldn't try to flee again.

And the world has seen the disgusting reactions of the French to this affair. He might not be a Presidential candidate, but he'd be welcomed back with open arms by a large segment of the French elite were he to flee now.

[Antonio the Sixth]

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

There is a difference between genuinely believing you are right and treating anybody who disagrees with you as if he were Opebo (yes, because I've the impression that you can't abandon your obsession for one second).
 

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Poor DSK will be loathed by the entire world for something that might very well be false. Even if proven 100% innocent, his image will still be damaged for no reason. Poor DSK will have to abandon the IMF where he was doing an amazing job, and poor DSK just went from the status of favorite as next French President to the status of official asshole.
I know you are not one of those evil depraved rich bastards and that you are infinitely superior to him, but just try for one second to imagine how you would feel if you were him and were innocent.
 

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Please tell me what "principles and ideals" I've betrayed. And no, hating rich people has never been a left-wing principle.

[Antonio the Sixth]

He was fleeing the country when he was arrested. I don't see how you think this means he wouldn't try to flee again.

Bullsh*t. He took the plane he had already planned to take. And before doing so, he took the time to have a dinner with his daughter and to call the hotel telling them he had forgotten a mobile phone. Wow, the American medias' presentation seems even more biased than I thought.

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The "disgusting reactions of the French elite" are the normal reactions of people who respect presumption of innocence. Contrary to some other people.

[Franzl]

DSK is clearly not a victim of any sort, and he's getting quite fair treatment as an accused person of a very serious crime.

Frankly, trying to turn this into something else seems quite dishonest and desperate to me.

[Gustaf]

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

There is a difference between genuinely believing you are right and treating anybody who disagrees with you as if he were Opebo (yes, because I've the impression that you can't abandon your obsession for one second).
 

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Poor DSK will be loathed by the entire world for something that might very well be false. Even if proven 100% innocent, his image will still be damaged for no reason. Poor DSK will have to abandon the IMF where he was doing an amazing job, and poor DSK just went from the status of favorite as next French President to the status of official asshole.
I know you are not one of those evil depraved rich bastards and that you are infinitely superior to him, but just try for one second to imagine how you would feel if you were him and were innocent.
 

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Please tell me what "principles and ideals" I've betrayed. And no, hating rich people has never been a left-wing principle.

You're turning into a complete mess now. Let's go over your "points" one by one.

1. How am I treating you badly? I was making a general statement, unrelated to any poster on here, and you immediately jumped on me with ad hominem attacks. At this point they're becoming rather bizarre. How is Opebo related to this?

2. Ok, first off, I think we can say with some certainty that he's a sexist bastard, regardless of how this case turns out. Have you read about the several cases that have already emerged? He apparently has quite the reputation for sexual harassment. Secondly, drugging and then anally raping a 14-year old girl didn't make Roman Polanski unpopular in France. Your government took him in and defended him vigorously. In fact, you're defending DSK right now.

3. I mean principles such as thinking that rich people should have to follow the same laws as everyone else. Principles such as respecting the individual rights of the downtrodden in society, like cleaning women. See, thinking rich people shouldn't get special VIP suites in prison isn't "hating rich people". But you don't seem to be very good at grasping nuances. Or controlling your temper, for that matter.

I will also note that I never claimed to know that he was guilty, while you keep arguing his innocence. Furthermore, I seem to be in agreement with newspapers and posters from all over the world, whereas the only people thinking DSK is being horribly treated seem to be...you and other Frenchmen. Does this indicate that the entire world is biased or that France is biased, in your opinion?

[Antonio the Sixth]

1. How am I treating you badly? I was making a general statement, unrelated to any poster on here, and you immediately jumped on me with ad hominem attacks. At this point they're becoming rather bizarre. How is Opebo related to this?

Maybe I should have said you're arguing against me as if it were against Opebo. Anyways, that's very easy to understand. If you stopped showing so much hate and contempt and didn't consider your contradictor as if he were a hypocritical sh*t, this discussion would be a lot more interesting. You keep putting words in my mouth that aren't mine, and arguing through strawmen instead of answering to my point, because for you every poster who disagrees with you on topics like this are like Opebo.

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No, I'm not a specialist of reputations. It might be true, and if he is really a "sexist bastard" as you say that certainly lowers my opinion of him a lot. But anyways, opinions shouldn't be based on rumours. And even if he is a "sexist bastard" that doesn't make him a rapist.

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Again, the two affairs have really nothing in common. To the points I've made earlier, let me add being an artist isn't the same thing as being a politician, and if Polanski ever ran for an office he wouldn't get half a vote.


And interestingly, I notice you didn't adress my point at all. If you missed it : if he is innocent, how would you feel in his place ? Is it as hard to have a bit of compassion for him ?

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I've made a point, which again you missed totally. A famous person and an unknown one aren't equal before the media. Being shown handcuffed is far more grave if these image are spread thoughout the world. It's a huge prejudice to dignity and to presumption of innocence. So yes, in this case a treatment of favor is necessary just in order to avoid such a public humiliation. Is it so hard to understand ?

But I see you criticize me for not being able to grasp nuances, just after grossly and stupidly caricaturing my argument as "rich people should get special VIP suites in prison".

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I stated my opinion on the affair, ie that I have difficulties to think he could really have attempted to rape a chambermaid. I might very well be wrong. If the justice concludes otherwise, then I'll accept that. I've never said I knew he was innocent so I'd apreciate if you stopped making me say what I did.
I, however, consider the possibility of his innocence. And I realize how horrible is what he is living, if he actually is innocent.

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Discussing about it is the only way to know who is right and who is wrong. Maybe French media are biased, yeah. Or maybe they are right. But since when being more numerous means being more right ?

[ZuWo]

Considering the details of the DSK case and the numerous allegations concerning DSK's behaviour towards women in the past, I find it very hard to believe that this guy is innocent. But then again, this is just my opinion which, although it seems to be supported by the facts, I cannot prove. However, I regard the existing conspiracy theories about DSK's arrest as pathetic. How smart is it to believe in mere speculation about a possible complot that no one can prove when, on the other hand, there is evidence that DSK is simply a criminal, disgusting old man?