Mark Hatfield

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I was wondering this prior to today, but Einzige's (I hope I spelled the name right) return got me thinking again, since I think it was him that kept pressing about Mark Hatfield in Han and Dallasfan's TBDFMIEM.

I was wondering why he's associated with Libertarianism. From what I read, he's basically a Liberal, not a Libertarian. I know he's said he's "committed to the cause of Libertarianism", but he just seems to be a pro-life Liberal. How is he associated with Libertarianism?

[Einzige Mk. II]

It mostly has to do with his anti-Vietnam War stance. The man was not, per se, a libertarian - he would be an economic centrist, to the right of the Democrats of his era but probably in line with the DLC - but he was one of the very few Republicans to actually heed Eisenhower's warning in his farewell address. I disagree with the man on some issues, both economic and social, but the spirit of his message is, to me, fundamentally libertarian.

Some right-libertarians praise Ronald Reagan, who was to my mind less of one than Mark Hatfield.

His Wiki article has a bit more towards this end:

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The guy was not a radical free-marketeer, but, as I hope I've shown, you don't have to be to be a libertarian. It's my point of view that the radical laissez-faire über alles types do more harm than good for the movement.

For that matter, I would consider the 'hippies', whom you likely regard as radical liberals, to be more libertarian than anyone currently standing for election in either major party.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

It mostly has to do with his anti-Vietnam War stance. The man was not, per se, a libertarian - he would be an economic centrist, to the right of the Democrats of his era but probably in line with the DLC - but he was one of the very few Republicans to actually heed Eisenhower's warning in his farewell address. I disagree with the man on some issues, both economic and social, but the spirit of his message is, to me, fundamentally libertarian.

Okay. The thing is that it's been hard to find information about his economic views, and what I've found seems to be calling for more government.

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Most likely, at least on social and foreign policy issues. The thing is that Reagan's rhetoric, even on the economy, at times failed to follow through in practice, such as when he voted to raise taxes, and had huge deficits. His image and his charisma, as well as the economy tend to overshadow some of the less than Conservative and less than Libertarian things in his tenure.

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The guy was not a radical free-marketeer, but, as I hope I've shown, you don't have to be to be a libertarian. It's my point of view that the radical laissez-faire über alles types do more harm than good for the movement.
[/quote]

I've gone over his wikipedia article multiple times, looking for information on his economic positions, and it's turned up very little.

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As with Hatfield, mainly on foreign policy and social positions. However, on economics, from my limited knowledge, they'd probably be the exact opposite, thought it's debatable.

The main reason I'm asking is to find out how he would've acted as President, because in a timeline I'm writing, that would be useful.

[#CriminalizeSobriety]

The guy was definetly center-right on economics, though a dove on foreign policy. Would he, if elected in 1980, cut taxes? Definetly.

But there would be no military build-up, and a more centrist tone would be stricken on economics and social issues.

Let's just say the Republican Party would be far better off today if he had gotten the nod.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The guy was definetly center-right on economics, though a dove on foreign policy. Would he, if elected in 1980, cut taxes? Definetly.

But there would be no military build-up, and a more centrist tone would be stricken on economics and social issues.

Let's just say the Republican Party would be far better off today if he had gotten the nod.

That's debatable, but I'd rather not get into it...

[#CriminalizeSobriety]

The guy was definetly center-right on economics, though a dove on foreign policy. Would he, if elected in 1980, cut taxes? Definetly.

But there would be no military build-up, and a more centrist tone would be stricken on economics and social issues.

Let's just say the Republican Party would be far better off today if he had gotten the nod.

That's debatable, but I'd rather not get into it...

Just sayin'.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The guy was definetly center-right on economics, though a dove on foreign policy. Would he, if elected in 1980, cut taxes? Definetly.

But there would be no military build-up, and a more centrist tone would be stricken on economics and social issues.

Let's just say the Republican Party would be far better off today if he had gotten the nod.

That's debatable, but I'd rather not get into it...

Just sayin'.

What?

[#CriminalizeSobriety]

The guy was definetly center-right on economics, though a dove on foreign policy. Would he, if elected in 1980, cut taxes? Definetly.

But there would be no military build-up, and a more centrist tone would be stricken on economics and social issues.

Let's just say the Republican Party would be far better off today if he had gotten the nod.

That's debatable, but I'd rather not get into it...

Just sayin'.

What?

The GOP has only won the Presidency once without New Hampshire... that should be rather telling about the rest of the map.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

^^I fail to see the exact point. Are you saying that we've son more consistently with the Northeastern and Western states or what?

[Einzige Mk. II]

As I've said, the guy was basically an economic centrist. He supported Oregon conservation, and was pissed when Nixon held back funds slotted towards that end. IIRC he voted against OSHA, for what it's worth.

And you can't really separate his social from his economic views. Look at this:

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[#CriminalizeSobriety]

^^I fail to see the exact point. Are you saying that we've son more consistently with the Northeastern and Western states or what?

Yes.

[Einzige Mk. II]

^^I fail to see the exact point. Are you saying that we've son more consistently with the Northeastern and Western states or what?

And he's absolutely right. The Republicans should have never targeted the South. It has made that Party stink for a generation.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I actually recall reading the above interview, and that was where I got the impression that he had less than Conservative economic view, talking about the government, specifically military, providing or at least having a hand in education, diet, housing, etc.

I'll skim through the interview again to find if you're referring to something specific.

I also remember in the interview him referring to himself as an (paraphrasing) "old school Liberal Republican", which is why I got confused on his economic view in the first place.

[Einzige Mk. II]

Old-school "liberal Republicans" were the closest things to libertarians to have ever held power for any significant period of time in this country. Again, you're being too absolutist in your definitions: despite what some Rand-worshipers may believe, capitalist economics is only one small piece of the libertarian puzzle.

[#CriminalizeSobriety]

To elaborate on the map (one I made back in August, and it was a grueling task.)

The number on each state corresponds to the amount of times the GOP has won the Presidency without them (since their inception to the Union - I discounted the Southern states that were lagging in re-admission.)

Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Georgia - these are states that voted for George Wallace, FDR, Woodrow Wilson, and William Jennings Bryan.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Old-school "liberal Republicans" were the closest things to libertarians to have ever held power for any significant period of time in this country. Again, you're being too absolutist in your definitions: despite what some Rand-worshipers may believe, capitalist economics is only one small piece of the libertarian puzzle.

As I know that, otherwise Libertarians would be Conservatives.

I know you've made the point moot now, but for the record, the quote is: "Yes, I'm an old guard Liberal Republican".

As for what you said about the old guard Liberal Republicans, I had been under the impression that "Liberal Republican" meant Teddy Roosevelt, practically the opposite of Libertarian, and that a "Conservative Republican" in the mold Arthur Vandenberg or Robert Taft would've been more consistent with Libertarianism.

[Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey]

We might have had a balanced budget amendment right now if it wasn't for his nay vote.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

A great man. One of the last truly great Republicans.

[feeblepizza]

Total and complete HP. He belonged in the Democratic Party and was an embarassment to conservatives all across the country, especially those who supported the fight against Communism in North Vietnam.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

We might have had a balanced budget amendment right now if it wasn't for his nay vote.

A great man. One of the last truly great Republicans.

Total and complete HP. He belonged in the Democratic Party and was an embarassment to conservatives all across the country, especially those who supported the fight against Communism in North Vietnam.

I'm not really asking your opinion of him. I'm asking where he stood politically, and what his policies woudl have been politically, though I understand why the three of you have the opinions of him you do. That also goes for Einzige and Dallasfan. My reasons for wondering about Hatfield's policies is so that I can accurately portray him in a timeline I'm working on (wink-wink, nudge-nudge).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You are JSojourner and I claim my five pounds.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

You are JSojourner and I claim my five pounds.

Who?

[Person Man]

You are JSojourner and I claim my five pounds.

Who?

He was a liberal evangelical from Indiana who posted here. Mark Hatfield seems to be socially conservative, economically moderate and liberal on foreign policy.

I'm guessing he was a moderate Republican, huh? Think of Chuck Hagel's foreign policy, Mike DeWine's alleged economic liberalism and an even less severe brand of social conservatism. - He's still a conservative, but as liberal as you can be and still be called a "conservative".

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

You are JSojourner and I claim my five pounds.

Who?

He was a liberal evangelical from Indiana who posted here. Mark Hatfield seems to be socially conservative, economically moderate and liberal on foreign policy.

I'm guessing he was a moderate Republican, huh? Think of Chuck Hagel's foreign policy, Mike DeWine's alleged economic liberalism and an even less severe brand of social conservatism. - He's still a conservative, but as liberal as you can be and still be called a "conservative".

From what I read, the only place Hatfield was Conservative on in social policy is abortion, and that he was very pro-gay rights. My impression would be of a western Progressive Democrat like George McGovern maybe, who was Conservative on aobrtion and economically moderate.

Also, why have I been accused by one person of being JSojourner?

[Person Man]

Basically he was Bob Casey? lol

Anyways, JSojourner was a evangelical liberal from Indiana who posted here a lot.