Amending the Constitution - Senate Powers

[JohnFKennedy]

Well folks, we have had a number of different drafts put forward and I think we need to decide on a definitive draft.

Defarge version

Supreme Court Jurisdiction and Authority Amendment[/u]

1. Article III Section 2 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

2. No Court within the Forum, State, Regional or Federal, shall rule on a case unless the plaintiff shall have legal standing.

3. The Supreme Court shall be the sole body in the Forum with the authority to nullify or void federal laws.

4. The Supreme Court shall only be able to nullify or void a law in the event that the law explicitly contradicts the Constitution.

----

Supremacy of the Constitution and Federal Law Amendment[/u]

1. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. All other forms of law are inferior to it.

2. Amendments to the Constitution are for all intents and purposes a part of the Constitution.

3. All federal law passed by the Senate is superior to any law or Constitution of the various Regions and States, as long as the said law is authorised by the Constitution.


Stevennick Version

 Section One.

The Senate shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense of Atlasia; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout Atlasia and the people therein;

To borrow money on the credit of Atlasia;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several regions;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout Atlasia;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of Atlasia;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of Atlasia, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section Two.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Section Three.

The powers not delegated to the government of Atlasia by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the regions, are reserved to the regions respectively, or to the people.

[JohnFKennedy]

Ernest version

Powers of the Senate and the Regions Amendment

Section 1 - Powers of the Senate
The Senate shall have the power save where limited by other provisions in the Constitution-
Clause 1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the Regions of Atlasia and the District of Columbia.
Clause 2. To borrow money on the credit of Atlasia and repay such debts.
Clause 3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations.
Clause 4. To provide an area of Freedom, Security and Justice without internal frontiers, and a single market where competition is free and undistorted.
Clause 5. To establish uniform rules of Naturalization and Alienation, Marriage and Divorce, and Adoption and Emancipation of Minors throughout Atlasia.
Clause 6. To establish uniform laws on the subjects of Bankruptcies, Contracts, and Incorporation throughout Atlasia.
Clause 7. To provide for the Punishment of Fraud in a uniform manner throughout Atlasia.
Clause 8. To establish coin and currency, which shall be the sole legal tender of Atlasia, regulate the value thereof, with respect to other coin and currency.
Clause 9. To fix standards of weights and measures and of such items of commerce as it deems needful throughout Atlasia.
Clause 10. To build or regulate the infrastructure needed for communication and transportation.
Clause 11. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right throughout Atlasia to their respective Writings and Discoveries for limited Times which shall not be extended once secured.
Clause 12. To promote the Public Health, by the conducting of researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations relating to the cause, diagnosis, and treatment of medical disorders and by assisting and fostering such research activities by public and private agencies.
Clause 13. To protect the Public Health and commerce, by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals and plants as needed to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.
Clause 14. To promote the distribution of Knowledge of Science and useful Arts, by assisting and fostering persons seeking to be educated, to provide education, or to produce educational materials.
Clause 15. To provide for the humanitarian relief of the distress caused by unpredictable events of natural or man-made origin.
Clause 16. to provide for systems of Insurance and Annuity for Unemployment, Disability, and Retirement.
Clause 17. To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court.
Clause 18. To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations.
Clause 19. To provide for the common defense of Atlasia; and to have the sole Power to declare War upon its enemies.
Clause 20. To raise and support armed forces and to make rules for the government and regulation of the armed forces of Atlasia.
Clause 21. To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
Clause 22. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of Atlasia, reserving to the Regions respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
Clause 23. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding twelve nautical miles square) as may, by cession of particular Regions, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of Atlasia, and to be known as the District of Columbia.
Clause 24. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the Region in which the same shall be, for the provision of military facilities, courthouses, and other needful buildings.
Clause 25. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such Territory as may be under the jurisdiction of Atlasia, but are not part of any Region.
Clause 26. To assign duties to the Executive Departments and to create such additional Departments as it may deem necessary.
Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Clause 28. And to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the powers enumerated in this amendment, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of Atlasia, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 2 Powers Denied the Senate
Clause 1. No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Clause 2. No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall vary depending upon the Region of which the Person it be laid against shall live.
Clause 3. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
Clause 4. No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one Region over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one Region, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
Clause 5. No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
Clause 6. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by Atlasia: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Senate, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
Clause 7. No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

Section 3 Powers Denied the Regions
Clause 1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of the Senate they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect Atlasia as a Whole.
Clause 2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of Atlasia a legal tender.
Clause 3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
Clause 4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
Clause 5. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Senate.
Clause 6. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
Clause 7. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
Clause 8. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, enter into any Agreement or Compact with with a foreign Power.

[JohnFKennedy]

Bono Version

Section One -- Powers vested on the Senate

The Senate shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense of Atlasia; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout Atlasia and the people therein;

To borrow money on the credit of Atlasia;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and to upheld the nonexistance of tariifs, imposts or duties on imports or exports among the several regions, except those absolutely necessary for executing their inspection laws.

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout Atlasia;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of Atlasia;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right throughout Atlasia to their respective Writings and Discoveries for limited Times which shall not be extended once secured, and which shall be no longer than the Author or Inventor's life.

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of Atlasia, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section Two -- Limits on Senate

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any region.

No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one region over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one region, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United Forum: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Senate, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.


Section Three -- Limits on Regions

No region shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No region shall, without the consent of the Senate, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any region on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United Forum; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Senate.

No region shall, without the consent of Senate, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another region, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

[JohnFKennedy]

What we now need to do is take a detailed look at all of the proposed drafts and decide on which bits of which are really necessary for the amendment.

This requires us all to look through and pick and choose bits which should be included.

NOTE: There was also a version from Peter Bell however I forget its location, if Peter or someone else could post it here that would be much appreciated.

[Colin]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

[Bono]

I suggest that when we go to vote on the final proposal, that be made clause by clause by clause.

[Defarge]

It is worth noting that my amendment was proposed by Peter Bell and is separate from the senatorial powers amendments.

[Bono]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

I don't mind most of Ernest's proposal, ut I disagree with a few claues. Most of them aren't that bad, but this one is execrand:"

"Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

[Colin]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

I don't mind most of Ernest's proposal, ut I disagree with a few claues. Most of them aren't that bad, but this one is execrand:"

"Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Yes that is rather strange that that clause is included in their. Ernest can you give an explanation to why you have this clause in your amendment?

[StevenNick]

I personally favor the Bono amendment.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

I don't mind most of Ernest's proposal, ut I disagree with a few claues. Most of them aren't that bad, but this one is execrand:"

"Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Yes that is rather strange that that clause is included in their. Ernest can you give an explanation to why you have this clause in your amendment?

The suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus is in the Constitution.  At the Start of the Civil War, Lincoln suspended the provision while the Congress was not in session, on grounds that some people consider shaky.  I can see both sides of that issue.  It is a measure intended to be used in emergencies and so needs to be able to quickly invoked.  On the other hand, it is a tool that should be under the control of the Legislature to decide when to deny it.  Seven days should be more than enough time for the Senate to convene when it is not in session so that it can decide if it agress with the action of the President.  Hence, allowing for a suspension by the executive that can only be invoked when the Senate is not in session and only for a limited time seems reasonable to me.  If the Senate ever becomes distrustful of a President's discretion, they can either remain in session or fail to make provision for him to be able to use it while they are not in session, as either strategem would deny the executive the authority to use that limited power.

[Nym90]

I favor the Defarge and Ernest Amendments.

[Bono]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

I don't mind most of Ernest's proposal, ut I disagree with a few claues. Most of them aren't that bad, but this one is execrand:"

"Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Yes that is rather strange that that clause is included in their. Ernest can you give an explanation to why you have this clause in your amendment?

The suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus is in the Constitution.  At the Start of the Civil War, Lincoln suspended the provision while the Congress was not in session, on grounds that some people consider shaky.  I can see both sides of that issue.  It is a measure intended to be used in emergencies and so needs to be able to quickly invoked.  On the other hand, it is a tool that should be under the control of the Legislature to decide when to deny it.  Seven days should be more than enough time for the Senate to convene when it is not in session so that it can decide if it agress with the action of the President.  Hence, allowing for a suspension by the executive that can only be invoked when the Senate is not in session and only for a limited time seems reasonable to me.  If the Senate ever becomes distrustful of a President's discretion, they can either remain in session or fail to make provision for him to be able to use it while they are not in session, as either strategem would deny the executive the authority to use that limited power.

You are basing yourself in the principle that politicians can be trusted. No offense to anyone, but they can't. Who would decide when the "public safety" would require it?
This clause allows for fascist measures like the Patriot Act to be passed. I will vote NAY on this as long as this cluas remains, and I hope all right-minded senators do the same.

[StevenNick]

I personally like Ernest's amendment the best although I consider both his and Bono's to be adquit in their scope and in their message.

I don't mind most of Ernest's proposal, ut I disagree with a few claues. Most of them aren't that bad, but this one is execrand:"

"Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Yes that is rather strange that that clause is included in their. Ernest can you give an explanation to why you have this clause in your amendment?

The suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus is in the Constitution.  At the Start of the Civil War, Lincoln suspended the provision while the Congress was not in session, on grounds that some people consider shaky.  I can see both sides of that issue.  It is a measure intended to be used in emergencies and so needs to be able to quickly invoked.  On the other hand, it is a tool that should be under the control of the Legislature to decide when to deny it.  Seven days should be more than enough time for the Senate to convene when it is not in session so that it can decide if it agress with the action of the President.  Hence, allowing for a suspension by the executive that can only be invoked when the Senate is not in session and only for a limited time seems reasonable to me.  If the Senate ever becomes distrustful of a President's discretion, they can either remain in session or fail to make provision for him to be able to use it while they are not in session, as either strategem would deny the executive the authority to use that limited power.

You are basing yourself in the principle that politicians can be trusted. No offense to anyone, but they can't. Who would decide when the "public safety" would require it?
This clause allows for fascist measures like the Patriot Act to be passed. I will vote NAY on this as long as this cluas remains, and I hope all right-minded senators do the same.

Although I disagree with Bono with respect to the Patriot Act, he is dead on when pointing out the flaws with the vagueries of this portion of the porposed amendment.  I will not vote for this amendment unless this is changed.

[Platypus]

I support Defarge's, because if there is anything that the powers/limitations forget from the other proposals, the Defarge version won't miss them.


*Sorry, I hated outsiders butting into the senate too, but it's important!*

[Peter]

Defarge version

Supreme Court Jurisdiction and Authority Amendment[/u]

1. Article III Section 2 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

2. No Court within the Forum, State, Regional or Federal, shall rule on a case unless the plaintiff shall have legal standing.

3. The Supreme Court shall be the sole body in the Forum with the authority to nullify or void federal laws.

4. The Supreme Court shall only be able to nullify or void a law in the event that the law explicitly contradicts the Constitution.

----

Supremacy of the Constitution and Federal Law Amendment[/u]

1. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. All other forms of law are inferior to it.

2. Amendments to the Constitution are for all intents and purposes a part of the Constitution.

3. All federal law passed by the Senate is superior to any law or Constitution of the various Regions and States, as long as the said law is authorised by the Constitution.

For a start that is mine, not DeFarge's. As I have already explained, I consider that these two amendments need to be passed independently of the Senate Powers Amendment. Theres an explaination of them on the AGs website.

I do not intend to weigh in too heavily on the Senate Powers Amendment because that is a political question more than it is a legal question, though I will of course help out where I'm asked to.

I implore the Senate to begin action on these two amendments as soon as possible, mostly because I am scared sh**tless that the Supreme Court can step in, without a case and without legal standing, and declare anything that it likes unconstitutional.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You are basing yourself in the principle that politicians can be trusted. No offense to anyone, but they can't. Who would decide when the "public safety" would require it?
This clause allows for fascist measures like the Patriot Act to be passed. I will vote NAY on this as long as this cluas remains, and I hope all right-minded senators do the same.

I'll admit that I haven't deeply studied the Patriot Act, but I wasn't aware that it had any provisions concerning the Writ of Habeus Corpus.  The suspension is already limited to times of rebellion or invasion, which the United States per se last suffered 1865, and its territory in 1945, unless you count the British invasion of 1964 that is.    The public safety provision limits even further how it may be used when there is a Rebellion or Invasion.  I can see where one might like even more explict restrictions, but the power to suspend the Writ of Habeus Corpus is a necessary war power for a government to have.  Perhaps limiting the suspension to being able to be used only during a War declared by the Senate?

[Bono]

You are basing yourself in the principle that politicians can be trusted. No offense to anyone, but they can't. Who would decide when the "public safety" would require it?
This clause allows for fascist measures like the Patriot Act to be passed. I will vote NAY on this as long as this cluas remains, and I hope all right-minded senators do the same.

I'll admit that I haven't deeply studied the Patriot Act, but I wasn't aware that it had any provisions concerning the Writ of Habeus Corpus.  The suspension is already limited to times of rebellion or invasion, which the United States per se last suffered 1865, and its territory in 1945, unless you count the British invasion of 1964 that is.    The public safety provision limits even further how it may be used when there is a Rebellion or Invasion.  I can see where one might like even more explict restrictions, but the power to suspend the Writ of Habeus Corpus is a necessary war power for a government to have.  Perhaps limiting the suspension to being able to be used only during a War declared by the Senate?

I used the Patriot Act as an example, not necesarryly fitting this.
But you can't trust people with that. Those words will have as much meaning as "shall not be infringed" in some time. We cannot place any dubious writing in the constitution, or in some time, when we are all 'retired', a lot of abuse will stem from there. We won't allways have a great suprme court like we do.

[The Dowager Mod]

Helloooooooo.......
I move discussion (not that anyones disscussing} be closed and the Defarge amendment be brought up for a vote.

[King]

#1 of the Supreme Court Jurisdiction and Authority Amendment doesn't make any sense. This is what is going to be removed:

"The Supreme Court may make any ruling they see fit to uphold the Constitution of the Atlas Forum."

You are taking away our right to make a ruling of our own?

[Peter]

Please read my article justifying all parts of both amendments on the Office of the AG website.

HERE

It addresses all your concerns.

[The Dowager Mod]

We need to get to work dammit!

[King]

Please read my article justifying all parts of both amendments on the Office of the AG website.

HERE

It addresses all your concerns.

Thanks, Peter! I support your version submitted by Defarge 100%.

[Bono]

Helloooooooo.......
I move discussion (not that anyones disscussing} be closed and the Defarge amendment be brought up for a vote.

I second that.

[TeePee4Prez]

I support the Defarge Amendment as well.