Greg Palast: "Kerry Won"
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  Greg Palast: "Kerry Won"
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Author Topic: Greg Palast: "Kerry Won"  (Read 18996 times)
freedomburns
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« on: November 05, 2004, 03:23:10 AM »

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

  Kerry Won. . .
  Greg Palast
  November 04, 2004

  Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States,
about 3 percent of votes cast are voided--known as "spoilage" in
election jargon--because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Drawing
on what happened in Florida and studies of elections past, Palast
argues that if Ohio's discarded ballots were counted, Kerry would
have won the state. Today, the Cleveland Plain
Dealer
http://www.cleveland.com/election/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/109956457262001.xml
reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in Ohio, if
you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000 provisional
ballots. So far there's no indication that Palast's hypothesis will
be tested because only the provisional ballots are being counted.
  Greg Palast, contributing editor to Harper's magazine, investigated
the manipulation of the vote for BBC Television's Newsnight. The
documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes," based on his New York Times
bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, has been released this
month on DVD . http://www.gregpalast.com/bff-dvd.htm

  Kerry won. Here's the facts.

  I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung
chad.  But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that
messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who
got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New
Mexico, it was John Kerry.
  Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit
poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47
percent.  Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51
percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry
took the state.
  So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate.
Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask
the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.
  Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio
punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply
not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See
TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten,"  November 1.]
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/an_election_spoiled_rotten.php

  Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm
sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other
ballot tricks old and new.
  The election in Ohio was not decided by the voters but by something
called "spoilage." Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of
the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded. When the
bobble-head boobs on the tube tell you Ohio or any state was won by
51 percent to 49 percent, don't you believe it ... it has never
happened in the United States, because the total never reaches a neat
100 percent. The television totals simply subtract out the spoiled
vote.

  Whose Votes Are Discarded?

  And not all votes spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every
official report, come from African-American and minority precincts.
(To learn more, click here.)
http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/electoral_reform/residual_ballot.php
  We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a
plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count.
That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris,
excluded 179,855 spoiled votes.  In Florida, as in Ohio, most of
these votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole
wasn't punched through completely--leaving a 'hanging chad,'--or was
punched extra times.  Whose cards were discarded? Expert
statisticians investigating spoilage for the government calculated
that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the dumpster were cast by
black folks. (To read the report from the U.S. Civil Rights
Commission, click here .)
http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/electoral_reform/residual_ballot.php
  And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of
ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from
Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other
minority citizens.
  So here we go again. Or, here we don't go again. Because unlike last
time, Democrats aren't even asking Ohio to count these cards with the
not-quite-punched holes (called "undervotes" in the voting biz). Nor
are they demanding we look at the "overvotes" where voter intent may
be discerned.
  Ohio is one of the last states in America to still use the
vote-spoiling punch-card machines. And the Secretary of State of
Ohio, J. Kenneth Blackwell, wrote before the election, "the
possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state's
primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity."
http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/electoral_reform/residual_ballot.php
  But this week, Blackwell, a rabidly partisan Republican, has warmed
up to the result of sticking with machines that have a habit of
eating Democratic votes. When asked if he feared being this year's
Katherine Harris, Blackwell noted that Ms. Fix-it's efforts landed
her a seat in Congress.
  Exactly how many votes were lost to spoilage this time? Blackwell's
office, notably, won't say, though the law requires it be reported.
Hmm. But we know that last time, the total of Ohio votes discarded
reached a democracy-damaging 1.96 percent. The machines produced
their typical loss--that's 110,000 votes--overwhelmingly Democratic.

  The Impact Of Challenges

  First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat wasn't
punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the 'challenges.'
That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's use of an old
Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands of voters of
color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the GOP laid
plans for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane laws--almost
never used--allowing party-designated poll watchers to finger
individual voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio courts
were horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters where
race is a factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was prepared
to let Republicans stand in the voting booth door.
  In the end, the challenges were not overwhelming, but they were
there. Many apparently resulted in voters getting these funky
"provisional" ballots--a kind of voting placebo--which may or may not
be counted. Blackwell estimates there were 175,000; Democrats say
250,000. Pick your number. But as challenges were aimed at
minorities, no one doubts these are, again, overwhelmingly
Democratic. Count them up, add in the spoiled punch cards (easy to
tally with the human eye in a recount), and the totals begin to match
the exit polls; and, golly, you've got yourself a new president.
Remember, Bush won by 136,483 votes in Ohio.

  Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote

  Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality--if all votes are
counted--is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com,
I wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico,
though not one ballot has yet been counted."
  How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the provisional
ballots.
  CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes.

...

  Your Kerry Victory Party

  So we can call Ohio and New Mexico for John Kerry-if we count all the
votes.
  But that won't happen. Despite the Democratic Party's pledge, the
leadership this time gave in to racial disenfranchisement once again.
Why? No doubt, the Democrats know darn well that counting all the
spoiled and provisional ballots will require the cooperation of
Ohio's Secretary of State, Blackwell. He will ultimately decide which
spoiled and provisional ballots get tallied. Blackwell, hankering to
step into Kate Harris' political pumps, is unlikely to permit
anything close to a full count. Also, Democratic leadership knows
darn well the media would punish the party for demanding a full count.
  What now? Kerry won, so hold your victory party. But make sure the
shades are down: it may be become illegal to demand a full vote count
under PATRIOT Act III.
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dazzleman
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2004, 06:49:38 AM »

What a load of s**t.  Punch card ballots are thrown out because they aren't marked properly.  They can't be counted if the person voted for more than one person, or the whole isn't punched correctly.

I always find it interesting that incendiary liberals assume that only Democratic voters are incapable of voting correctly.  Republicans I guess always mark their ballots properly, so there are no Republican ballots spoiled?  Only Democrats have their votes thrown away?

Sorry, but I don't buy it.  This is ugly partisan liberal trash.
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Alcon
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2004, 10:34:03 AM »

Oh, come on! We lost. We should have won, but America decided against us.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2004, 04:26:56 PM »

Palast is a left-wing partisan hack.

The exit polls were wrong, not the voters.
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J. J.
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2004, 06:31:42 PM »
« Edited: November 10, 2004, 11:36:13 AM by Dave Leip »

Gee, if you count illegal ballots, which you can't, Kerry has an outside chance of winning.
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The Duke
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2004, 07:36:04 PM »

This is now two posts fb has made based on the premise that the exit polls were right and the vote counting/recording was fraudulent.

It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of exit polling and vote counting, not to mention statistical analysis.
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freedomburns
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2004, 05:22:34 AM »

Or, the facts that Mr. Palast cites add up to a stolen election.  I'm just letting the information be known.  People can draw their own conclusions.


fb
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chadnat1019
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2004, 12:20:40 AM »

Wow, to think that some people in American will believe you!

I mean are you doing drugs with Elvis or something?

Whatever your smoking you should sell, because you could make lots of money with it.  Then you could donate that money to whatever Bush/Republican Hate Group (aka527) you want to in 2008.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2004, 02:34:21 AM »

Yes Bush stole 4 million votes. This is a REAL stretch. lol
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ATFFL
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2004, 12:08:41 PM »

Mr. Palast loves to talk, but, apparently, is poor at math.  For Kerry to win with his 247,672 non-counted votes to swing the election they would have to break for Kerry by roughly 4 to 1.  Now, facing reality, some of the "spoiled" ballots will actually contain no vote for either candidate and the provisional ballots will see some, if not many, thrown out.  I'm going to go on record as saying that once all the provisional ballots are counted Bush's lead will be above his figure of 92,672 spoiled ballots.

His figures in New Mexico are even more laughable, primarily because he produces none.
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Erc
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2004, 10:34:24 PM »
« Edited: November 10, 2004, 10:36:17 PM by Erc »

If every single spoiled and provisional ballot was cast for John Kerry, then yes.  Since at least a third of provisional ballots were cast for Bush (I'd say)...no, just no.

And, yes, small samples of a population are more accurate than the actual vote count.  Try to spin statistics all you want, but a statistic is only a poor approximation of a parameter.


And, now to repeat my line from the wee hours of November 3rd...

Wolf Blitzer...stfu.
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muon2
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2004, 10:59:34 PM »

I don't know what a spoiled ballot means in OH, but in IL it's pretty well defined. A spoiled ballot is one produced by a voter to the judges, claiming that one or more marks were incorrectly placed, and it will not go into the ballot box. With optical scanning it means that the scanner has rejected the ballot after repeated attempts to process the ballot. In both these cases the spoiled ballot is placed into a special envelope, and the voter is given a new ballot to complete. The spoiled ballots are returned to the election commission upon close of voting with the tally of properly handled ballots.

The key fact in all of this is that the voter who had a spoiled ballot gets to cast another vote. Counting spoiled ballots here would be equivalent to giving some people two votes.
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Nym90
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2004, 12:04:27 AM »

Yes Bush stole 4 million votes. This is a REAL stretch. lol

It is, but in all fairness, Bush wouldn't have to "steal" 4 million votes, only 130,000.

It's funny how Republicans like the popular vote a whole lot more now than they did 4 years ago.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2004, 01:52:31 AM »

Yes Bush stole 4 million votes. This is a REAL stretch. lol

It is, but in all fairness, Bush wouldn't have to "steal" 4 million votes, only 130,000.

It's funny how Republicans like the popular vote a whole lot more now than they did 4 years ago.

Even 130,000 is a bit of a stretch to steal.
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chadnat1019
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 02:13:37 AM »

Yes we did care about the popular vote in 2000 just as we care about it now in 2004.

Funny to me that the Democrates had no problem with there GOD Bill Clinton never getting over 50% of the popular vote in either 1992 or 1996.

Come on guys you lost in 2000 and 2004.  Try getting over it and getting more in touch with the American people.  Then maybe you'll have a chance in 2008.
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Nym90
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2004, 10:51:12 AM »

Yes we did care about the popular vote in 2000 just as we care about it now in 2004.

Funny to me that the Democrates had no problem with there GOD Bill Clinton never getting over 50% of the popular vote in either 1992 or 1996.

Come on guys you lost in 2000 and 2004.  Try getting over it and getting more in touch with the American people.  Then maybe you'll have a chance in 2008.

No, I care more about the margin of victory in the popular vote more than I do the absolute percentage. Plus, Clinton got many more electoral votes than Bush.

If you are going to point out that Clinton never got 50%, I could point out that the Republican nominees in the two elections against Clinton failed to even average 40% of the vote. Looks pretty bad when you think about it that way. Kerry actually got a higher percentage of the popular vote in this election than Bush got in 2000.

Of course, that's all meaningless too, but that's what I'm getting at.

My point is that a lot of Republicans have trumpeted the fact that Bush "won the election by 4 million votes"; that's intellectually dishonest unless you are willing to admit that he lost the election by 500,000 votes last time. The popular vote was then and still is now irrelevant.
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chadnat1019
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2004, 01:21:05 PM »

NOTE TO ALL DEMOCRATES:


Please,  get over it!!!!!!!!!!!

You did not win in 2000 and you did not win in 2004.  You can go and spin the numbers anyway you want, spit out your little talking points, but fact is you still lost.

Learn from what the American people are telling you instead of making talking points about why you lost.
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KEmperor
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2004, 11:34:50 PM »

Stupid Democrates......
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J. J.
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2004, 01:36:42 AM »


My point is that a lot of Republicans have trumpeted the fact that Bush "won the election by 4 million votes"; that's intellectually dishonest unless you are willing to admit that he lost the election by 500,000 votes last time. The popular vote was then and still is now irrelevant.

The point Bush had 4 Million more votes than Kerry and more than all other candidates combined.  The indicates political strengths, but has very little to do with who the election.
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Nym90
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2004, 01:49:40 AM »

NOTE TO ALL DEMOCRATES:


Please,  get over it!!!!!!!!!!!

You did not win in 2000 and you did not win in 2004.  You can go and spin the numbers anyway you want, spit out your little talking points, but fact is you still lost.

Learn from what the American people are telling you instead of making talking points about why you lost.

I don't disagree that legally, we lost in 2000. I never said we didn't. I'm merely presenting facts, which people can choose to do what they please with.
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elcorazon
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2004, 01:36:27 PM »
« Edited: November 12, 2004, 01:38:40 PM by elcorazon »


My point is that a lot of Republicans have trumpeted the fact that Bush "won the election by 4 million votes"; that's intellectually dishonest unless you are willing to admit that he lost the election by 500,000 votes last time. The popular vote was then and still is now irrelevant.

The point Bush had 4 Million more votes than Kerry and more than all other candidates combined.  The indicates political strengths, but has very little to do with who the election.
LIE. Go readd the numbers. (the real number is about 3.5 million, give or take)
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elcorazon
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2004, 01:36:58 PM »

Yes we did care about the popular vote in 2000 just as we care about it now in 2004.

Funny to me that the Democrates had no problem with there GOD Bill Clinton never getting over 50% of the popular vote in either 1992 or 1996.

Come on guys you lost in 2000 and 2004.  Try getting over it and getting more in touch with the American people.  Then maybe you'll have a chance in 2008.

No, I care more about the margin of victory in the popular vote more than I do the absolute percentage. Plus, Clinton got many more electoral votes than Bush.

If you are going to point out that Clinton never got 50%, I could point out that the Republican nominees in the two elections against Clinton failed to even average 40% of the vote. Looks pretty bad when you think about it that way. Kerry actually got a higher percentage of the popular vote in this election than Bush got in 2000.

Of course, that's all meaningless too, but that's what I'm getting at.

My point is that a lot of Republicans have trumpeted the fact that Bush "won the election by 4 million votes"; that's intellectually dishonest unless you are willing to admit that he lost the election by 500,000 votes last time. The popular vote was then and still is now irrelevant.
I agree completely.  nice post.
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cabville
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2004, 07:40:54 PM »

Or, the facts that Mr. Palast cites add up to a stolen election.  I'm just letting the information be known.  People can draw their own conclusions.


fb


The problem is he doesn't really cite fact.  Citing left-wing zealots and their spin does not constitute a fact.  His conclusions are especially weak.  Arguing that the exit polls were correct for example.  How about the exit poll that showed kerry winning Pennsylvania by 18, off by 16 points or the one showing in winning Virginia, off by double figures.  Liberals are just sore losers.
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J. J.
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2004, 10:25:22 PM »


My point is that a lot of Republicans have trumpeted the fact that Bush "won the election by 4 million votes"; that's intellectually dishonest unless you are willing to admit that he lost the election by 500,000 votes last time. The popular vote was then and still is now irrelevant.

The point Bush had 4 Million more votes than Kerry and more than all other candidates combined.  The indicates political strengths, but has very little to do with who the election.
LIE. Go readd the numbers. (the real number is about 3.5 million, give or take)

Not a lie, a reference to the previous post.
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J. J.
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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2004, 10:28:32 PM »

I've also notices that Freedumbburnout hasn't visited for several days; maybe reality has started to sink in.
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