White Privilege

[Ban my account ffs!]

If I'm ambitious and studious, I will succeed.

That's a nice way to view the world. It's also not exactly connected with reality.

Yes, I know it's hard to admit that people are responsible for their own destiny. After all, it means that nobody can help a person but themselves in the end.

Tell me, Xahar, have you ever met somebody who was poor long term who was studious, ambitious, and reasonably intelligent? I've known a number of poor to lower middle-class people in my life, and they often succumbed to a victim mentality, without which they would be on much better footing in society.

My mother is studious, ambitious, and quite intelligent.  But she can't stand up without falling to the floor let along move about without somebody there to help transfer into a wheel chair and push her around.  In fact, it has been her studiousness and intelligence that has been her worst enemy, being so stubborn and desiring to get out and make something of the world without the physical ability.

It's cute to suggest that she could be a typist or find great satisfaction in some other menial job meant for the lazy and physically inept... but she can't even type.  

So really... hard work and studiousness hasn't really paid off for her.  Despite the jobs she created as a business owner and the taxes she paid in, her government paid health insurance is constantly dangled in her face.  Do you know how humiliating it is to watch your mom sob on the phone to some asshole who thinks she's trying to scam the system and she has had to enlist the help of the entire extended family just to make sure she doesn't lay in her own refuse because the state decided she no longer deserved to have a nurse's assistant come and help her.. it's totally worth it to have the whole family give up their economic livelihood just so you can stick it to the helpless poor and keep taxes low for those benevolent "wealth creators" up top.  Somehow I think even the worst of them would advocate keeping insurance for my mother..

But of course, family does what they have to do.  And the state knows that all to well.

So, think twice before you start looking at the world through those rosy colored "you can only help your self because Ayn Rand told me so and if I just work hard I will bequeathed with 72 virgins and a glass of warm milk every night before I go to bed" lest you be struck lame and have to wallow in your own feces waiting for someone to volunteer to help you out of the goodness of their heart.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I also didn't mean to totally kill this thread with my rant.  I don't have some deep seeded hatred of Vepres.  I am pointing out that in my personal experience, hard work gets you nothing but a lame body and scorn and contempt by the branch of society that generally subscribes to the "root, hog, or die" philosophy.

It's easy and convenient to say "I support help for people who really need it" and then in the next post lambast "taking my money and wealth to redistribute it."

Well, you know what?  "Life isn't fair" works both ways, you know.  Except taking part of your income to pay for the cripples isn't going to cripple you or lead you to an early death.  So I ask that those who can, do.

[opebo]

Thanks for your fine rant, Snowguy.  I agree that the self-satisfied economic prejudices of the right-wingers are more than just annoying and stupid, they inspire righteous anger when you think about the fact that they kill people.

I try to keep things a bit detached as I'm (mostly) a privileged myself, but it does us all good to hear from the actual victims of our brutal system.

[fezzyfestoon]

Why does poverty automatically mean failure?

@ me or Earth?

If directed at me: The way you liberals talk about it, you'd think it is. Poverty is only failure if one is not content in it. Many of the so-called "poor" are young people who will make more later in life.

You said it.  And I'm not a liberal.

Success and income are completely unassociated with each other.

That's sort of what I am getting at, that income is irrelevant.

And Fezzy, I have honestly never seen a post from you that wasn't center-left at least.

What you're saying is that income is not a factor in "success" defined as high income (which is entirely untrue).  What I'm saying is that income is not an indicator of "success" not defined by monetary standards.

[Vepres]

If I'm ambitious and studious, I will succeed.

That's a nice way to view the world. It's also not exactly connected with reality.

Yes, I know it's hard to admit that people are responsible for their own destiny. After all, it means that nobody can help a person but themselves in the end.

Tell me, Xahar, have you ever met somebody who was poor long term who was studious, ambitious, and reasonably intelligent? I've known a number of poor to lower middle-class people in my life, and they often succumbed to a victim mentality, without which they would be on much better footing in society.

My mother is studious, ambitious, and quite intelligent.  But she can't stand up without falling to the floor let along move about without somebody there to help transfer into a wheel chair and push her around.  In fact, it has been her studiousness and intelligence that has been her worst enemy, being so stubborn and desiring to get out and make something of the world without the physical ability.

It's cute to suggest that she could be a typist or find great satisfaction in some other menial job meant for the lazy and physically inept... but she can't even type.  

So really... hard work and studiousness hasn't really paid off for her.  Despite the jobs she created as a business owner and the taxes she paid in, her government paid health insurance is constantly dangled in her face.  Do you know how humiliating it is to watch your mom sob on the phone to some asshole who thinks she's trying to scam the system and she has had to enlist the help of the entire extended family just to make sure she doesn't lay in her own refuse because the state decided she no longer deserved to have a nurse's assistant come and help her.. it's totally worth it to have the whole family give up their economic livelihood just so you can stick it to the helpless poor and keep taxes low for those benevolent "wealth creators" up top.  Somehow I think even the worst of them would advocate keeping insurance for my mother..

But of course, family does what they have to do.  And the state knows that all to well.

So, think twice before you start looking at the world through those rosy colored "you can only help your self because Ayn Rand told me so and if I just work hard I will bequeathed with 72 virgins and a glass of warm milk every night before I go to bed" lest you be struck lame and have to wallow in your own feces waiting for someone to volunteer to help you out of the goodness of their heart.

Yeah, I clearly singled out the disabled

Dude, I've said time an time again, those who are physically incapable of something shouldn't be expected to work. Everybody else, yes. Frankly, you are simply throwing ad hominem attacks on the basis of some twisted strawman conception you have of my views. Don't lecture me as if I know nothing; I am sick of liberals on this forum getting all offended over a perfectly reasonable world view, and then lecturing me as if I denied gravity existed. I had an aunt who was mentally disabled and unable to survive without social security (she passed away a few years ago, unfortunately), I understand this completely. I also know that there are many people who are able-bodied and DO work and DON'T take government money who are still poor.

Not only do upper middle-class latte liberals preach about "those poor working class folk", they proceed to tell anybody with any view other than some bleeding heart philosophy that they are wrong, immoral, and stupid. I don't go around trashing an individual with an egalitarian philosophy.

Furthermore, Xahar, I will not take lectures on what is and is not in touch with reality from an arrogant, detached, rich Asian immigrant who probably has as much first hand knowledge of poverty or working-'classness' as I do. Sure, you have Bengali relatives, so what? I have a cousin who lives on low wages in Florida, a mother who grew up working class in the Bronx with three siblings. One of my best friends earlier in my life was about as poor as one can get and still afford his own shelter. So please, don't talk down to me, I'm sick of it.

[dead0man]

But don'tchaknow?  They are better than you because they care more so they have every right to look down their nose at you Whitey.  You don't care as much as they do so no matter what they say or how immature they act, they always feel superior. 

They know that no matter how hard some work, if they are poor they will always be poor.  Unless the magic of luck touches them on the head and they become unpoor.  There is no way working hard makes a difference in the life of the "poors".  It doesn't matter how many people we can show that have pulled themselves up from the ghetto through nothing but grit and determination, they know that luck was involved and they would have gotten "up" without all that hard work and determination.

It's not insulting at all to the millions that have greatly improved their station in life through sweat and blood.  Nope, not insulting at all.

[Earth]

It's not insulting at all to the millions that have greatly improved their station in life through sweat and blood.  Nope, not insulting at all.

And finally, the conservative comes out. Who gives a rat's ass about insulting? I don't.

Tokenism is ridiculous. Because some people have bucked the trend, and managed to get out of living in hell, it's possible for everyone. A convenient way of justifying not doing sh**t for your fellow man. I guess the market is still there to rely on.

Jesus, someone feels threatened by the possibility that just maybe, your life, and it's boundaries aren't exactly determined by your own hand, it's like you've just killed their favorite pet. Out goes the rational actor crutch, and in comes the existential crisis.

[Derek]

I believe there is merit to the idea, but that it is way overblown. The US is still fundamentally a capitalist society, and people will rise or fall based on their merits, not race.

So you really think free market can alone reward people based only on their merit ? Please...

Yes, but remember life isn't fair.

[opebo]

Yes, but remember life isn't fair.

Yes, that's precisely the point of this thread, Derek.  The system you support is racist and classist, and absolutely unfair.  It strictly favors a small elite and oppresses the vast majority with great brutality.

So, why do you support it, if it isn't fair?

[J. J.]

     I remember reading somewhere that blacks whose ancestors were never enslaved do better on average than those who are descended from slaves. It seems to have more to do with those from historically downtrodden groups doing worse, which correlates with race somewhat.

Indeed. For blacks with enslaved ancestors, their culture has been scarred by the past, thus decreasing their likelihood of success.

You mean like Jews in the Holocaust?

[fezzyfestoon]

Yes, but remember life isn't fair.

It's easy to say that when it applies to someone else, isn't it?

[Хahar 🤔]

Furthermore, Xahar, I will not take lectures on what is and is not in touch with reality from an arrogant, detached, rich Asian immigrant who probably has as much first hand knowledge of poverty or working-'classness' as I do. Sure, you have Bengali relatives, so what? I have a cousin who lives on low wages in Florida, a mother who grew up working class in the Bronx with three siblings. One of my best friends earlier in my life was about as poor as one can get and still afford his own shelter. So please, don't talk down to me, I'm sick of it.

Oh, I understand that I've gotten all the breaks so far. If life is a game, then I'm one of the winners. I'll admit that. But unlike you, I see it for what it is, luck, rather than deluding myself into thinking that it is based on some special merit of mine.

[Vepres]

It's not insulting at all to the millions that have greatly improved their station in life through sweat and blood.  Nope, not insulting at all.

And finally, the conservative comes out. Who gives a rat's ass about insulting? I don't.

Tokenism is ridiculous. Because some people have bucked the trend, and managed to get out of living in hell, it's possible for everyone. A convenient way of justifying not doing sh**t for your fellow man. I guess the market is still there to rely on.

Jesus, someone feels threatened by the possibility that just maybe, your life, and it's boundaries aren't exactly determined by your own hand, it's like you've just killed their favorite pet. Out goes the rational actor crutch, and in comes the existential crisis.

Not everybody is capable of rising up, and that is fine. That's how the world works, that is natural. Not all Tigers will get enough food as others. Not all rodents wills survive the winter. Sure there are outside forces, but you act like we're all at the mercy of external forces. Bullsh**t! People always have choices, different ones, but they do. Ones choices shape their destiny, how one reacts to outside forces shapes their destiny, not some chance.

It is nice to believe that nobody can change things that we are all trapped in a predetermined set of events that nobody can change. It is nice to think that because than nobody is responsible for anything, it was just random events.

By the way, one's birth has nothing to do with luck. If I was not conceived by my parents at the exact same time under the exact same circumstances, I would not exist. Souls don't play a lottery in Heaven for their future lives before they're born.

I'm not saying external events have no impact, but somebody can choose how they react, how they let the events affect their psyche, how they will proceed. Besides, being happy isn't tied to wealth unless you're literally dying due to lack of it.

Furthermore, Xahar, I will not take lectures on what is and is not in touch with reality from an arrogant, detached, rich Asian immigrant who probably has as much first hand knowledge of poverty or working-'classness' as I do. Sure, you have Bengali relatives, so what? I have a cousin who lives on low wages in Florida, a mother who grew up working class in the Bronx with three siblings. One of my best friends earlier in my life was about as poor as one can get and still afford his own shelter. So please, don't talk down to me, I'm sick of it.

Oh, I understand that I've gotten all the breaks so far. If life is a game, then I'm one of the winners. I'll admit that. But unlike you, I see it for what it is, luck, rather than deluding myself into thinking that it is based on some special merit of mine.

My merit is my genes are made up of two successful people. I would not exist in any other circumstance. Furthermore, you don't know my life, you don't know what I've been through. I've been dealt my share of bad luck (which is sensitive, I won't go into details other than it wasn't financial) and I have/am dealt/dealing with it.

In fact, I never said I did something to deserve my lifestyle (or my problems). Strawman fallacy. What gives one merit is the choices they make given the external forces surrounding their life. I have resilience to certain things, and weakness to others (psychologically) and, while I can never know for sure, if I ever enter into a period of financial hardship, I am confident I would react in a 'healthy' and rational way. Xahar, you are painting me as an arrogant jerk when I am simply trying  to analyze the world and debate people here, not lecture peers of my who may be less fortunate. Not criticize them, but analyze things. I 'm sorry I struck a nerve with you (and Snowguy as well), but I will not be patronized for my subjective world view by somebody with an equally subjective world view.

[Vepres]

A geeky analogy

One may play a game on easy, another on hard, but both can beat the game. The latter may be more likely to face difficult battles and puzzles, but he can overcome them, and just as life is random, the difficulty could randomly change (which wouldn't happen in all but the most f'ed up games ).

[fezzyfestoon]

There is no "making money" gene and more importantly that's not what success is.  And your parents having made money does not make you a success.  It's easy to analyze, predict, and judge from an ivory tower.  It's harder to understand and question why it is.  Personal choice has its limits and so much more is just a matter of luck and circumstances.  Delusions of superiority based on income are shallow and feeble-minded, the exact opposite of a success.

And there is no creation of a society outside humanity.  Natural selection does not apply.  We are protected by the fortune of those far before us, animals are not.  We have the ability to pay to be selected.

[opebo]

Not everybody is capable of rising up, and that is fine. That's how the world works, that is natural. Not all Tigers will get enough food as others. Not all rodents wills survive the winter. Sure there are outside forces, but you act like we're all at the mercy of external forces. Bullsh**t! People always have choices, different ones, but they do. Ones choices shape their destiny, how one reacts to outside forces shapes their destiny, not some chance.

Your wild animal analogy is a bad one.  The point is that we are not 'wild' but wholely domesticated (existing only as a component of society), and our precise critique isn't that it is unfair for you, a Tiger, to eat up the Mouse in human society, but that the society is the functioning entity, and the individual is not important except in terms of his power and position within that society.

To talk of what is done to the poor by the rich as something comparable to wild animals is to misunderstand that what makes the rich able to suck the blood of the poor, is not any intrinsic fangs or claws, but the poor themselves.  Society is a heirarchy in which all participate in their own oppression.  The rich who sits at the top is not smart, or strong, but merely well positioned.

A better creature analogy would be the insect hive, with workers and royalty.

[opebo]

Delusions of superiority based on income are shallow and feeble-minded, the exact opposite of a success.

In point of fact money is the precise representation of one's position in the power hierarchy, fezzy.  There is no such thing as 'success' of course, but there blame well is such a thing as superiority.

[Vepres]

There is no "making money" gene and more importantly that's not what success is.

I don't believe I said or even implied either (if I did, it was poor communication on my part)

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I don't believe I said I was a success (though I have succeeded and failed).

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As I said, you make a choice as to how to react to your luck and circumstances. So in a sense, personal choice is everything (as in, how your life goes relative to where you were).

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I sometimes have a hard time communicating my thoughts (I am very right-brained), I didn't mean to imply I think I'm superior (I don't).

[Vepres]

BTW, Fezzy, 'success' has multiple definitions.

success [səkˈsɛs]
n
1. the favourable outcome of something attempted
2. the attainment of wealth, fame, etc.

I was using definition 2, you are using definition 1. I don't think the concept of "success" is merely based on income, far from it, in fact.

I don't believe I ever said that success is merely #2, I was just using it in this context.

[fezzyfestoon]

My merit is my genes are made up of two successful people.

That combined with your past equating of money to success leads me to believe you will make lots of money because you are built for it.  In reality, you've been given it by your parents not genetically.

Instead of talking in circles and contradicting yourself, why don't you just define success already?  Because the way I see it is that you think of money is that anyone can earn a lot of it and because they do that makes them successful.  What I and others are trying to get across is that you can't control all your circumstances to the point of willing high income.  It just doesn't happen.  Certain opportunities and challenges are and are not present intrinsically for people born into different circumstances.  Like I said, understanding why it is there are so many people in poverty is much more real but challenging when you have what they don't without having to work for it.

Your words don't match your actions I'm afraid.  I'm not saying you've said you're superior, I've deduced that from your attitude and point of view in your posts.  But I have no place to judge, I'm simply trying to open your eyes to a different perspective on the matter.  I know how easy it is to dismiss poverty since it's not even in your realm of possibility from what I understand.  I was like that for a long time and only recently even tried to understand what life would be like if I didn't have what I do.  And it is enriching above all else.  My appreciation for what I've been provided is way up.

[Vepres]

My merit is my genes are made up of two successful people.

That combined with your past equating of money to success leads me to believe you will make lots of money because you are built for it.  In reality, you've been given it by your parents not genetically.

Instead of talking in circles and contradicting yourself, why don't you just define success already?  Because the way I see it is that you think of money is that anyone can earn a lot of it and because they do that makes them successful.  What I and others are trying to get across is that you can't control all your circumstances to the point of willing high income.  It just doesn't happen.  Certain opportunities and challenges are and are not present intrinsically for people born into different circumstances.  Like I said, understanding why it is there are so many people in poverty is much more real but challenging when you have what they don't without having to work for it.

Your words don't match your actions I'm afraid.  I'm not saying you've said you're superior, I've deduced that from your attitude and point of view in your posts.  But I have no place to judge, I'm simply trying to open your eyes to a different perspective on the matter.  I know how easy it is to dismiss poverty since it's not even in your realm of possibility from what I understand.  I was like that for a long time and only recently even tried to understand what life would be like if I didn't have what I do.  And it is enriching above all else.  My appreciation for what I've been provided is way up.

I know I've been all over the place. Let me try to explain.

Firstly, I have a lot of compassion for those less fortunate. I donated a large fraction of the little personal money of mine to a charity in Uganda last year. I volunteered at a cloth drive for a poor Indian reservation in SD. I tip as often as I can (some say I over tip) whether its my money or my parents' (sometimes the latter annoys them ). Yes, I don't rhetorically indicate it here or in real life, but I think that is pointless (and hypocritical if you do nothing).

Now, I define success as concept (not a word), as being mentally and physically healthy (Attention Whoring: of which, I am currently neither). I used it, in this context (being that we were discussing class and the like), as the second definition I posted above.

I don't believe I said you can merely will yourself to higher income. However, one can always better themselves. They may have set backs, personal tragedies even, but they can make choices to better themselves. They're not robots who are programmed to react a certain way to everything.

As for appreciating what one has, I would gladly trade some of my personal issues I have now for a working-class lifestyle. Money is largely irrelevant to emotional and mental health. I have tried to understand what my life would be like if I had far less, and quite honestly, I came to the conclusion that I would not be successful (by my definition), but that doesn't matter because I am not successful now either!

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What! You've been stalking me!

[k-onmmunist]

not anymore, no.

[Earth]

Not everybody is capable of rising up, and that is fine. That's how the world works, that is natural. Not all Tigers will get enough food as others. Not all rodents wills survive the winter.

Way to go with that naturalistic fallacy. The fact is we have the opportunity to build something better for ourselves, so these social divisions don't need to be reinforced, but we choose not to. Partly, because of this f*cked up view, because people mistakenly keep referring to 'natural' as if that meant anything. Nature is not a yardstick when we're the ones with the concept of it.

Sure there are outside forces, but you act like we're all at the mercy of external forces. Bullsh**t! People always have choices, different ones, but they do. Ones choices shape their destiny, how one reacts to outside forces shapes their destiny, not some chance.

They're not mutually exclusive. We are at the mercy of outside forces, and we always have choices, but it doesn't mean it will amount to jack sh**t. We're at the mercy of our employer, who in these times, could easily lay anyone of us off. We're at the mercy of our health, and the health of people we depend on. Please stop with this 'destiny' bit, it's lame.

It is nice to believe that nobody can change things that we are all trapped in a predetermined set of events that nobody can change. It is nice to think that because than nobody is responsible for anything, it was just random events.

That's not quite what I said, but since I enjoy this round, I'll let it go.

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...Which were outside of your parents choice; both in who will be born to them, and what they'll become. You just essentially described luck right there. You were born under circumstances beyond your control, and your parents only exercised a certain amount. Or am I wrong, and your parents controlled society itself, and your cognitive abilities, and decision making?

Luck- the second great equalizer.

not anymore, no.

What happened; someone forgot to tell the blacks?

[Vepres]

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...Which were outside of your parents choice; both in who will be born to them, and what they'll become. You just essentially described luck right there. You were born under circumstances beyond your control, and your parents only exercised a certain amount. Or am I wrong, and your parents controlled society itself, and your cognitive abilities, and decision making?

It is literally impossible for me to have been born under any other circumstances. It is impossible for me to have been born anywhere else but Denver, it is impossible for me to black, for if even the slightest thing changed, I would not exist.

[Earth]

I don't dispute that. I dispute that somehow that's not luck, that you are who you are.