France bans the Burka and other veils

[Tender Branson]

French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public

France's lower house of parliament has overwhelmingly approved a bill that would ban wearing the Islamic full veil in public.

There were 335 votes for the bill and only one against in the 557-seat National Assembly.

It must now be ratified by the Senate in September to become law.

The ban has strong public support but critics point out that only a tiny minority of French Muslims wear the full veil.

Many of the opposition Socialists, who originally wanted the ban limited only to public buildings, abstained from voting after coming under pressure from feminist supporters of the bill.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has backed the ban as part of a wider debate on French identity but critics say the government is pandering to far-right voters.

After the vote, Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said it was a victory for democracy and for French values.

"Values of freedom against all the oppressions which try to humiliate individuals; values of equality between men and women, against those who push for inequality and injustice."

The vote is being closely watched in other countries, the BBC's Christian Fraser reports from the French capital Paris.

Spain and Belgium are debating similar legislation, and with such large-scale immigration in the past 20 or 30 years, identity has become a popular theme across Europe, our correspondent says.
'Open-faced democracy'

The bill would make it illegal to wear garments such as the niqab or burka, which incorporate a full-face veil, anywhere in public.

It envisages fines of 150 euros (£119) for women who break the law and 30,000 euros and a one-year jail term for men who force their wives to wear the burka.

The niqab and burka are widely seen in France as threats to women's rights and the secular nature of the state.

"Democracy thrives when it is open-faced," Ms Alliot-Marie told the National Assembly when she presented the bill last week.

She stressed the bill, which makes no reference to Islam or veils, was not aimed at "stigmatising or singling out a religion".

Berengere Poletti, an MP from Mr Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, said women in full veils wore "a sign of alienation on their faces" and had to be "liberated".

Andre Gerin of the Communist opposition compared the veil to "a walking coffin, a muzzle".

story continues ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm



http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1658/widespread-support-for-banning-full-islamic-veil-western-europe-not-in-america

[Хahar 🤔]

Involuntary "liberation". Wonderful.

[opebo]

Involuntary "liberation". Wonderful.

Well I suppose you could say the same about domestic abuse generally - they don't mind being beaten, so should we allow it?  On the whole I'm not really taking a side here.

[Hash]

557-seat National Assembly.

I stopped reading there. Journalists who can't get simple facts correct don't deserve to have their articles read.

[John Dibble]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A secular state shouldn't be trying to ban an individual religious practice that isn't inherently harmful. I'm fine with banning people from forcing women to wear them, but if a woman wants to wear it voluntarily that's her business and her business alone.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Right, it just happens that the vast majority of those who will be affected are Muslims.

[k-onmmunist]

My support for feminism comes far above my support for religion.

[John Dibble]

My support for feminism comes far above my support for religion.

What part of feminism supports telling a woman what she can't wear?

[opebo]

My support for feminism comes far above my support for religion.

What part of feminism supports telling a woman what she can't wear?

Well, the argument is that their abusive male family members force them to wear it, or they throw acid in their faces.

[John Dibble]

My support for feminism comes far above my support for religion.

What part of feminism supports telling a woman what she can't wear?

Well, the argument is that their abusive male family members force them to wear it, or they throw acid in their faces.

And like I said I have nothing against banning that kind of behavior. My problem is this ban will affect the ones that might actually want to wear it without any coercion. Sure, I think they'd be at the very least considered silly to want to, but it does not harm to me or anyone else if it's their choice so why should I care?

[opebo]

And like I said I have nothing against banning that kind of behavior. My problem is this ban will affect the ones that might actually want to wear it without any coercion. Sure, I think they'd be at the very least considered silly to want to, but it does not harm to me or anyone else if it's their choice so why should I care?

Yeah.. I do agree with you, though I should think that a person wearing a burkha should be at least indicative of a potential crime worth investigating as if she showed up covered with bruises and black eyes, etc.

[Free Palestine]

It would make sense just to have the legal restriction on women being forced to wear it.  There are Muslim women who choose to wear a burqa or niqab, because they were raised to believe that it's the proper sort of thing to wear, when around male non-relatives.

What's next?  Muslims will have to wear a crescent patch on their clothing?

[John Dibble]

And like I said I have nothing against banning that kind of behavior. My problem is this ban will affect the ones that might actually want to wear it without any coercion. Sure, I think they'd be at the very least considered silly to want to, but it does not harm to me or anyone else if it's their choice so why should I care?

Yeah.. I do agree with you, though I should think that a person wearing a burkha should be at least indicative of a potential crime worth investigating as if she showed up covered with bruises and black eyes, etc.

Well duh, that'd be worth investigating regardless of whether or not there was a burkha involved.

[Boris]

lol, why don't Europeans just ban/restrict Muslim immigration instead of dicking around with spires and articles of clothing?

[Oakvale]

My support for feminism comes far above my support for religion.

Yeah, telling women what they can and can't wear is really feminist.

[Bo]

Whatever. If they want to do this, let them. I can see where they are coming from, though, by supporting women's rights.

[phk]

lol, why don't Europeans just ban/restrict Muslim immigration instead of dicking around with spires and articles of clothing?

^^^^

I have a feeling that should have done long ago.

[opebo]

And like I said I have nothing against banning that kind of behavior. My problem is this ban will affect the ones that might actually want to wear it without any coercion. Sure, I think they'd be at the very least considered silly to want to, but it does not harm to me or anyone else if it's their choice so why should I care?

Yeah.. I do agree with you, though I should think that a person wearing a burkha should be at least indicative of a potential crime worth investigating as if she showed up covered with bruises and black eyes, etc.

Well duh, that'd be worth investigating regardless of whether or not there was a burkha involved.

No I meant the wearing of a Burhka alone should create suspiciion of a crime.

[patrick1]

Whatever. If they want to do this, let them. I can see where they are coming from, though, by supporting women's rights.

And what if they banned Tichel or other Jewish head coverings?

This law to me is just a sideshow and hollow gesture to make it look like they are doing something.  There are real integration problems that are not being addressed and laws like this are an obstacle to discourse. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fail...

Also, isn't it spelt "Burqa" ?

[CubOB]

I think it's a dreadful law. I understand the arguments regarding domestic abuse and womens' rights etc, but this isn't the answer. If there really is a higher percentage of domestic abuse cases in Muslim communities (which I doubt) then the solution is to investigate and prosecute those cases. I also don't think the answer to oppression is to impose another form of oppression - the only difference being who's imposing it.

I also feel that this particular law has been motivated by xenophobia and fear over immigration, and the debate about women's rights is almost an afterthought. I also want to say for the record that I don't think the burqa is a good thing, but this is absolutely the wrong way to go about dealing with these issues (the right way being improved access to education - and opportunities in general - for Muslim women).

[Franzl]

That's freedom for ya!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Good for France. This rocks.

[Franzl]

Good for France. This rocks.

And why do you hate freedom again?

[Earth]

Stupid, reactionary politics. Good job, France.

[Oakvale]

Good for France. This rocks.

And why do you hate freedom again?

+1

This is an abhorrent and, really, depressing development.