American "justice" hates blacks

[Joe Republic]

I don't care enough, sry.

[Sbane]

How's the weather in Oakland tonight?  Hot, mild, etc.?

Nice and cool.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     My mother was outraged that he was not acquitted. I agree with Sam Spade that some form of manslaughter seemed like the sensible verdict based on the facts.

Has Northern California ever had a race riot?

     There was an anti-Chinese riot in San Francisco at some point in the last 1870s.

[Lunar]

    My mother was outraged that he was not acquitted.

Reading the story makes the whole thing more complicated than black and white -- but how could he be acquitted?  He was trained how and when to use his gun.  Yet he killed an unarmed man.


If this were some yokel, then the "I didn't mean to fire my gun" excuse would hold more water.  Although he was only a BART cop, either he ignored his extensive training protocol or his training protocol was severely lacking -- in either case, some heads has got to roll.  

Police officers are given the gun not just for giggles but rather as part of their service contract with society.  They can't just fire their guns as flippantly as a drunken guy in a bar uses his fists.  You can't just fire off shots at an unarmed guy's chest or head unless he's threatening serious bodily harm.  

The best conclusion from this trial is that police officers who carry guns, even those who are never expected to fire them like BART police officers, need to have extensive training in the use of their arms.  If they are going to carry guns, they can't be treated like rent-a-cops.  I'm not sure what the status quo is here in that regard, but I'd hope that the training is more extensive and more frequent than it was before this incident.

As it seems that the murderer in this case had such a training, he should be held to a higher standard than someone who had no training in executing lethal weapons.
 
I don't need this guy to go down, but if you're going to give BART policemen lethal force abilities, then they either need to be just as well trained in lethal measures as a major city's police department, or they need to cease using lethal weapons.

[Associate Justice PiT]

    My mother was outraged that he was not acquitted.

Reading the story makes the whole thing more complicated than black and white -- but how could he be acquitted?  He was trained how and when to use his gun.  Yet he killed an unarmed man.


If this were some yokel, then the "I didn't mean to fire my gun" excuse would hold more water.  Although he was only a BART cop, either he ignored his extensive training protocol or his training protocol was severely lacking -- in either case, some heads has got to roll.  

Police officers are given the gun not just for giggles but rather as part of their service contract with society.  They can't just fire their guns as flippantly as a drunken guy in a bar uses his fists.  You can't just fire off shots at an unarmed guy's chest or head unless he's threatening serious bodily harm.  

The best conclusion from this trial is that police officers who carry guns, even those who are never expected to fire them like BART police officers, need to have extensive training in the use of their arms.  If they are going to carry guns, they can't be treated like rent-a-cops.  I'm not sure what the status quo is here in that regard, but I'd hope that the training is more extensive and more frequent than it was before this incident.

As it seems that the murderer in this case had such a training, he should be held to a higher standard than someone who had no training in executing lethal weapons.
 
I don't need this guy to go down, but if you're going to give BART policemen lethal force abilities, then they either need to be just as well trained in lethal measures as a major city's police department, or they need to cease using lethal weapons.

     That was my reaction to it as well, but according to her a precondition of involuntary manslaughter is recklessness & she did not believe that he was acting recklessly, but rather was merely freaked out by the large number of people around as well as the tenseness of the situation.

     However, carrying a weapon gives you a great deal over the people around you. I would suggest that somebody carrying a weapon should be held to a higher standard of ethical conduct, regardless of whether or not they are properly trained in the use of that weapon. If you want to carry a lethal weapon & can't be bothered to receive proper training & end up killing somebody as a result, it's on your head.

[opebo]

When did we travel back to 1992?

G*d, can you imagine?  If only!

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

    That was my reaction to it as well, but according to her a precondition of involuntary manslaughter is recklessness & she did not believe that he was acting recklessly, but rather was merely freaked out by the large number of people around as well as the tenseness of the situation.

     However, carrying a weapon gives you a great deal over the people around you. I would suggest that somebody carrying a weapon should be held to a higher standard of ethical conduct, regardless of whether or not they are properly trained in the use of that weapon. If you want to carry a lethal weapon & can't be bothered to receive proper training & end up killing somebody as a result, it's on your head.

As someone who carries one frequently I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph, but being held to a higher standard also doesn't necessarily mean your mom got it wrong either, since she thinks he believed his life was in danger apparently.

[Vepres]

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

[John Dibble]

It's rather unfortunate that there have been riots over this. I can't say whether or not this is the correct charge (though clearly this guy should have been charged with something, this being the minimum possible case) but even so it's not something to riot over. I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

[opebo]

...I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

How is it a step back?  At least they're responding to the violence visited upon them with reciprocation.  And the owners of Foot-lockers, etc, are almost uniformly white.

[TheGreatOne]

...I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

How is it a step back?  At least they're responding to the violence visited upon them with reciprocation.  And the owners of Foot-lockers, etc, are almost uniformly white.

You're seriously defending these racist individuals, who steal, injure and damage property?  They aren't meeting this injustice with reciprocation.  These are a bunch of hooligans that want an excuse to commit crimes.  They stole from Jewlry and electronic stores that were owned by people in their own community.   

[opebo]

You're seriously defending these racist individuals, who steal, injure and damage property?  They aren't meeting this injustice with reciprocation.  These are a bunch of hooligans that want an excuse to commit crimes.  They stole from Jewlry and electronic stores that were owned by people in their own community.   

Revolution always breaks quite a lot of eggs and has a lot of collateral damage.  I can't say I 'prefer' revolution, but one has to have a bit more respect for slaves who rise up over slaves who only lick boots.

[TheGreatOne]

Mostly people standing about. I think they have a podium set up so people are speaking. Lots of signs denouncing racist/killer cops. Standard stuff.

Yeah when will the denounce the gang members within their community for killing four cops in 2009?

[opebo]

Yeah when will the denounce the gang members within their community for killing four cops in 2009?

Hopefully never.  Why should one be angry at a fellow slave who brings down one of the overseers?  One should rather applaud.

[John Dibble]

...I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

How is it a step back?  At least they're responding to the violence visited upon them with reciprocation. And the owners of Foot-lockers, etc, are almost uniformly white.

The first step back was the incident that started all of this - the shooting itself. Even if the officer had been found guilty of murder damage was done in terms of race relations with the black community.

The riots area the second step back. It's a step back because it gives people who actually do have a racist attitude towards blacks a new, recent example of blacks behaving badly. Also, since the police have to actually deal with these crimes it will further reinforce any racist attitudes they may have. The fact that you can't see how this is a bad thing for the black community just goes to show how out of touch with reality you really are.

Also, where did you get this Footlocker ownership statistic? Do you have real data or did you just assume and pull it out of your bum?

Revolution always breaks quite a lot of eggs and has a lot of collateral damage.  I can't say I 'prefer' revolution, but one has to have a bit more respect for slaves who rise up over slaves who only lick boots.

Revolution? This isn't a revolution you moron. In a few days things will largely go back to normal. All this has resulted in is more racism, damage to local businesses, and more people going to jail which will give them a criminal record and make their lives more difficult. Yeah, fan-f**king-tastic.

[TheGreatOne]

You're seriously defending these racist individuals, who steal, injure and damage property?  They aren't meeting this injustice with reciprocation.  These are a bunch of hooligans that want an excuse to commit crimes.  They stole from Jewlry and electronic stores that were owned by people in their own community.   

Revolution always breaks quite a lot of eggs and has a lot of collateral damage.  I can't say I 'prefer' revolution, but one has to have a bit more respect for slaves who rise up over slaves who only lick boots.

What the hell are you talking about?  Nobody is a slave.  This isn't a revolution.  Many people thought this officer was protecting his life, and the African Americans in Oakland are just reinforcing negative stereotypes.  

[John Dibble]

You're seriously defending these racist individuals, who steal, injure and damage property?  They aren't meeting this injustice with reciprocation.  These are a bunch of hooligans that want an excuse to commit crimes.  They stole from Jewlry and electronic stores that were owned by people in their own community.   

Revolution always breaks quite a lot of eggs and has a lot of collateral damage.  I can't say I 'prefer' revolution, but one has to have a bit more respect for slaves who rise up over slaves who only lick boots.

What the hell are you talking about?  Nobody is a slave.  This isn't a revolution.  Many people thought this officer was protecting his life, and the African Americans in Oakland are just reinforcing negative stereotypes.  

In opebo's world everyone who isn't a wealthy elite is a slave. I suggest putting him on ignore.

[opebo]

In opebo's world everyone who isn't a wealthy elite is a slave. I suggest putting him on ignore.

Yes, no need to take into account an entire quadrant of political perspective.

[Associate Justice PiT]

In opebo's world everyone who isn't a wealthy elite is a slave. I suggest putting him on ignore.

Yes, no need to take into account an entire quadrant of political perspective.

     There are many forumites in the lower-left quadrant. As far as I know, you are the only one to describe everyone who is not far-upper-class as being slaves.

[opebo]

Yes, no need to take into account an entire quadrant of political perspective.

     There are many forumites in the lower-left quadrant. As far as I know, you are the only one to describe everyone who is not far-upper-class as being slaves.

Nevertheless, ignoring that point of view will be to your cognitive loss, and the loss of all who fear their convictions cannot stand up to challenge.

[TheGreatOne]

Yes, no need to take into account an entire quadrant of political perspective.

     There are many forumites in the lower-left quadrant. As far as I know, you are the only one to describe everyone who is not far-upper-class as being slaves.

Nevertheless, ignoring that point of view will be to your cognitive loss, and the loss of all who fear their convictions cannot stand up to challenge.

Its a false point of view.  We acknowledge that racism exists and the African American community has some interesting points, but we don't condone the shooting of police officers and the riots that result in loss of life, property and severe damage.  Personally, I hate the double standard in the African American community.  Its an attitude that claims everyone white man or police officer guilty with no chance of being proven innocent, and the jury is always wrong if they side against an African American. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

[Lunar]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

White cop shoots unarmed, restrained black guy in the back for no legitimate reason, and gets off with a verdict less than murder...

I'm not sure what they are "review[ing]" here though.

[Frink]

As someone who lives in Oakland I might be able to give a local perspective. Many of my friends are angry about this and almost everyone I talked to yesterday seemed to have an opinion on it. Universally most of the people I talked to thought it was Murder but weren't prepared to go blow up downtown over it.

As near as I heard the riot was mostly instigated by several far-left groups and "trust-fund Anarchists" rather then the actual community that makes up Oakland. A friend of mine's store took some severe damage in both riots over this incident despite being a vocal supporter of Oscar Grants family in this. Its the people of Oakland who have been hurt by the rioting, not the supposedly corrupt justice system. All the rioting has accomplished is setting Oakland back yet again and making our city look even worse in the nations eyes.

I'm personally glad I stayed in Berkeley with a good friend for the duration of this tragedy. I'd like to add that the only people who lose no matter what in this are the people of Oakland.

 

It's rather unfortunate that there have been riots over this. I can't say whether or not this is the correct charge (though clearly this guy should have been charged with something, this being the minimum possible case) but even so it's not something to riot over. I just watched a video of a bunch of people breaking into a Footlocker and stealing a bunch of shoes and stuff - I don't know what these people are thinking, it's not as if that's going to help anyone or anything. Rather than one step back now it's two.

Indeed. Looting during a riot over a cop killer getting a 'light sentence'? Most of those rioters probably don't even care about it or the community at all.

This would be a non-story if a black cop did this to a white man...

If their was a history of it in Oakland then it probably would be a story. Of course, the reverse is true in this situation.

[TheGreatOne]

White guy shoots black guy, the Justice Department can't resist.

White cop shoots unarmed, restrained black guy in the back for no legitimate reason, and gets off with a verdict less than murder...

I'm not sure what they are "review[ing]" here though.

Based on the video, involuntary manslaughter is the right call, but the police officer should receive the maximum.