Is Obama a Keynesian?

[LBJ Revivalist]

Are we, under Obama, practicing Keynesian economics?

Also which presidents were proponents of the Keynesian school of economics (besides Nixon)?

[Bo]

Of course. That's why he passed his huge stimulus package in the middle of the recession. All U.S. Presidents since FDR were Keynesians.

[RI]

It appears to me that if Obama is a Keynesian, he is certainly a terribly poor one. If he were a Keynesian, he'd know that even talking about cutting the deficit in a recession is a terrible idea. He wouldn't call for the passage of a health care bill with new taxes in a recession. Sure, he passed a stimulus package, but someone who actually understood why you need to pass a stimulus package would have known that it was pathetically small and not nearly sufficient. It seems to me that Obama doesn't really have a firm grasp on economics, but rather that he does whatever is politically expedient in the name of "consensus".

Since at least when Reagan came into office, there has not been a president who actually practiced Keynesian economics, only those who have co-opted some of its tenants when it suited them.

[Derek]

No he is a neo socialist who said that at some point an individual has made enough money. Well I'll tell him what, come get it! Yep I can't wait for Obama to decide who can and can't make what. You get that guy off of script and you hear him talking to Joe the Plummer about spreading the wealth. He is a neo socialist and if it were still popular he would raise taxes and create new government programs.

[opebo]

No he is a neo socialist who said that at some point an individual has made enough money. Well I'll tell him what, come get it! Yep I can't wait for Obama to decide who can and can't make what. You get that guy off of script and you hear him talking to Joe the Plummer about spreading the wealth. He is a neo socialist and if it were still popular he would raise taxes and create new government programs.

I wish!  But by the way, you realize that new government programs are not socialist, don't you?  Good Keynesian policy would include massive new programs devised to be counter-cyclical.

Of course Obama, like most presidents, is a kind of partial, weak Keynesian.  But we've never had a truly Keynesian president.  Now, if the stimulus had been 3 or 4 times as big, and included large monthly direct cash payments to the lower class, as well as real quantitative easing, I might consider him a proper Keynesian.

[Derek]

No he is a neo socialist who said that at some point an individual has made enough money. Well I'll tell him what, come get it! Yep I can't wait for Obama to decide who can and can't make what. You get that guy off of script and you hear him talking to Joe the Plummer about spreading the wealth. He is a neo socialist and if it were still popular he would raise taxes and create new government programs.

I wish!  But by the way, you realize that new government programs are not socialist, don't you?  Good Keynesian policy would include massive new programs devised to be counter-cyclical.

Of course Obama, like most presidents, is a kind of partial, weak Keynesian.  But we've never had a truly Keynesian president.  Now, if the stimulus had been 3 or 4 times as big, and included large monthly direct cash payments to the lower class, as well as real quantitative easing, I might consider him a proper Keynesian.

Obama is a socialist not a Keynesian.

[opebo]

Obama is a socialist not a Keynesian.

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Obama is a socialist not a Keynesian.

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

[opebo]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

[angus]

Sure, why not?  Keynes argued that the private sector didn't always manage economies of scale very well, so the government should stipulate certain policies to stabilize the economy.  That about right?  Obama has favored the the cash for clunkers program, the mandate that everyone buy medical insurance, and the bailout of large financial institutions.  Also, when asked by Joe the Plumber whether the Democrat tax proposal would prevent him from buying the business he works for, Obama replied that he just wanted to "spread the wealth around."  He has lamented that the civil rights program ultimately failed because it lost track "of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change."  So, if I'm interpreting Keynes (and Obama) correctly, I'd say that he qualifies. 

"We are all Keynesians now"
                   --Milton Friedman, December 31, 1965

Then again, he has also favored giving the privately-owned Federal Reserve complete regulatory oversight across the entire U.S. economy.  He has has dangled $4.3 billion in federal aid before the states in a competition called the Race to the Top, in which the states must increase the number of privately managed charter schools.  And he has certainly failed those advocates of single-payer universal health care.  So I guess you could argue that he's not the most Keynesian of Keynesians. 

"In one sense, we are all Keynesians now; in another, nobody is any longer a Keynesian."
                   --Milton Friedman, February 4, 1966

[opebo]

Sure, why not?  Keynes argued that the private sector didn't always manage economies of scale very well, so the government should stipulate certain policies to stabilize the economy.  That about right?

Well the way you state that seems a bit confusing, since by 'economies of scale' we usually mean savings realized by an organization becoming larger.  But if you mean the larger or 'macro' economy is poorly managed in certain ways by liberalism ('the market') then I guess you're right.  Basically it seems to me he didn't trust the market or private individuals or herds ability to right themselves after panics or even perhaps to maximize their production during normal times.

But anyway you're correct he has good instincts and says the right things sometimes.  Perhaps it isn't his fault that hardly any new spending or programs could be passed. 

[angus]

Okay, macroeconomic proclivities of Classic Liberalism being inefficient, that's exactly what I meant.  Or that's at least how I recall Keynes. 

But I wasn't making a value judgment.  Just commenting on how you could argue that he was Keynesian in his economic thinking, if you wanted to.  Clearly, you could also make a good case that he's not Keynesian enough, if you were predisposed to believe that. 

These things are like arguing about whether fuschia is purple, or whether chartreuse is green.  (Pink and yellow, respectively, also getting some support here.)  The only colors you can't really argue about are those with RGB values of 000000 and FFFFFF.  Even the colorblind perceive that.  But "is somebody a Keynesian?" is a question with many valid answers.  I think Milton's statements, taken together, illustrate that point nicely.

[Derek]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

Of course he has to be sneaky about it. If he said socialized medicine, then he'd be done for. Before his campaign he spoke of a single payer system. He said it wouldn't happen over night and be done in increments like in Canada. A few months ago he said the same thing about how this health care bill was just the beginning. He has been brought up to hate everything this country stands for and is successful with by everyone around him.

[opebo]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

Of course he has to be sneaky about it. If he said socialized medicine, then he'd be done for. Before his campaign he spoke of a single payer system. He said it wouldn't happen over night and be done in increments like in Canada. A few months ago he said the same thing about how this health care bill was just the beginning. He has been brought up to hate everything this country stands for and is successful with by everyone around him.

Dude you don't have to be 'brought up to' object to the fact that poors are killed by exclusion from health care all the time in america.

[Derek]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

Of course he has to be sneaky about it. If he said socialized medicine, then he'd be done for. Before his campaign he spoke of a single payer system. He said it wouldn't happen over night and be done in increments like in Canada. A few months ago he said the same thing about how this health care bill was just the beginning. He has been brought up to hate everything this country stands for and is successful with by everyone around him.

Dude you don't have to be 'brought up to' object to the fact that poors are killed by exclusion from health care all the time in america.

He hates what America stands for and being president is a chance to reverse America's strength and success. Our healthcare system is the envy of the world.

[tallguy23]

Our healthcare system is far from the envy of the world. My family in England, who are supporters of the Conservatives, think the health service in the UK is one of the greatest things about the country. My boyfriend, who's family is from Greece and Cyprus, has nothing but good things to say about universal healthcare in those countries. They can't believe how many people are uninsured in the USA. We may be excellent when it comes to technology and innovation but we don't offer good coverage to our citizens.

[justW353]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

Of course he has to be sneaky about it. If he said socialized medicine, then he'd be done for. Before his campaign he spoke of a single payer system. He said it wouldn't happen over night and be done in increments like in Canada. A few months ago he said the same thing about how this health care bill was just the beginning. He has been brought up to hate everything this country stands for and is successful with by everyone around him.

Dude you don't have to be 'brought up to' object to the fact that poors are killed by exclusion from health care all the time in america.

He hates what America stands for and being president is a chance to reverse America's strength and success. Our healthcare system is the envy of the world.

Our healthcare system is the envy of the Third World.

It is not the envy of "Second World" countries, let alone Developed Countries.

Costa Rica has a better healthcare system than the United States of America.

[Derek]

Well, he hasn't enacted or proposed a single 'socialist' policy, Derek, so you must be talking about what he dreams of at night, secretly.  Which I don't think anyone need care about all that much.

He did dream of socialized medicine, so maybe you're right.

Well we have no idea what he may have dreamed of, but what he proposed was not socialized medicine, alas.

Of course he has to be sneaky about it. If he said socialized medicine, then he'd be done for. Before his campaign he spoke of a single payer system. He said it wouldn't happen over night and be done in increments like in Canada. A few months ago he said the same thing about how this health care bill was just the beginning. He has been brought up to hate everything this country stands for and is successful with by everyone around him.

Dude you don't have to be 'brought up to' object to the fact that poors are killed by exclusion from health care all the time in america.

He hates what America stands for and being president is a chance to reverse America's strength and success. Our healthcare system is the envy of the world.

Our healthcare system is the envy of the Third World.

It is not the envy of "Second World" countries, let alone Developed Countries.

Costa Rica has a better healthcare system than the United States of America.

Where can you get the quality of care that you get here?

[opebo]

Where can you get the quality of care that you get here?

Bumrungrad, for sure.

[Derek]

Where can you get the quality of care that you get here?

Bumrungrad, for sure.

Yea and I heard Botswana. Stop trolling.

[Vepres]

It appears to me that if Obama is a Keynesian, he is certainly a terribly poor one. If he were a Keynesian, he'd know that even talking about cutting the deficit in a recession is a terrible idea. He wouldn't call for the passage of a health care bill with new taxes in a recession. Sure, he passed a stimulus package, but someone who actually understood why you need to pass a stimulus package would have known that it was pathetically small and not nearly sufficient. It seems to me that Obama doesn't really have a firm grasp on economics, but rather that he does whatever is politically expedient in the name of "consensus".

You better be joking. $700 billion stimulus isn't "small".

[opebo]

Where can you get the quality of care that you get here?

Bumrungrad, for sure.

Yea and I heard Botswana. Stop trolling.

Dude, Bumrungrad is as good as any normal first rank hospital in the US.  There's no trolling here - anyone who has actually been to Thailand will find this easy to understand - in terms of technology and infrastructure, the country only a hair's breadth from being 'first world' country.

You better be joking. $700 billion stimulus isn't "small".

The 700 billion was so absurdly small and insignificant as to be laughable, Vepres.  Anyone who would consider that amount to be in any way usefully stimulative is no real Keynesian.

Vep, many trillions of demand were lost and we threw a piddling 700 billion into the hole.  No point.

[RI]

It appears to me that if Obama is a Keynesian, he is certainly a terribly poor one. If he were a Keynesian, he'd know that even talking about cutting the deficit in a recession is a terrible idea. He wouldn't call for the passage of a health care bill with new taxes in a recession. Sure, he passed a stimulus package, but someone who actually understood why you need to pass a stimulus package would have known that it was pathetically small and not nearly sufficient. It seems to me that Obama doesn't really have a firm grasp on economics, but rather that he does whatever is politically expedient in the name of "consensus".

You better be joking. $700 billion stimulus isn't "small".

It is when compared to the size of the problem in our economy. For deficit spending to be effective, it, through the multiplier effect, needs to replace the lost demand that is causing the high unemployment and the recession. The point of spending stimulus money is to immediately create jobs for the previously unemployed, increasing the amount of income that there is the spend in the economy, therefore increasing the flow of money to businesses who can, hopefully, use their increases in revenue to hire more people, which in turn creates more jobs and more people with disposable income, and so on. This process ultimately boosts the entire economy back to maximum productivity.

Unfortunately, $700 billion (only a third of which actually went towards jobs, so actually about $250 billion) is hardly enough to combat an unemployment rate over 10%. That’s tens of millions of people without work. Maybe if all $700 billion was directly paid to the unemployed would it have made a difference, but it wasn’t. A targeted stimulus package, which ours wasn’t, could have done much more with the same amount of money, but as for the actual way it was used, an adequate amount would have been at least $2-3 trillion.

Yes, I know that looks big, but you have to keep such numbers in perspective. The economy itself is over $14 trillion, and, thanks to the recession, the GDP is about a trillion dollars lower than it would be if it healthy, and that is after the stimulus package.

[King]

Yes, but he's too politically weak right now to properly act like one.

[k-onmmunist]

Nope, just a neoliberal like almost all other Democrats.