Helen Thomas to Retire

[Brittain33]

No, I don't oppose existence of Israel, I oppose new settelements. But if I opposed existence of Israel, would that make me an anti-semite?

The issues of the Middle East are not some giant passive-aggressive game of daring people to call you an anti-semite.

[The Mikado]

Israel is a fact on the ground, what you would or would not have supported in 1948 is an interesting discussion but irrelevant policywise.  Do I think it was a good idea to form Israel then?  No, but now is not then and Israel is a fact, not an abstract debate.

PS: did anyone know before this happened that Helen Thomas was Lebanese-American?  I had no idea.

[Torie]

Israel is a fact on the ground, what you would or would not have supported in 1948 is an interesting discussion but irrelevant policywise.  Do I think it was a good idea to form Israel then?  No, but now is not then and Israel is a fact, not an abstract debate.

PS: did anyone know before this happened that Helen Thomas was Lebanese-American?  I had no idea.

Yes, I knew. But then I was around when she was more of a celebrity. So much useless data clutters my brain these days.

[cinyc]

Hey Roch, I do oppose settelements. Am I an anti-semite?

If you oppose the existence of Israel and think the Jews should go back to Germany and Poland, where they were slaughtered in the millions by Hitler and his minions, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  Just like Helen Thomas.  Good riddance to her!

Wow that's funny.

No, I don't oppose existence of Israel, I oppose new settelements. But if I opposed existence of Israel, would that make me an anti-semite?

There is an "and" in my sentence.  Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

[Brittain33]

If a Russian opposes the existence of Poland, what would be the best description for his views?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

If a Russian opposes the existence of Poland, what would be the best description for his views?

A normal Russian?

[Earth]

Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

How so? Unless you mistakenly think that Jews depend on Israel in some substantial way.

[Brittain33]

Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

How so? Unless you mistakenly think that Jews depend on Israel in some substantial way.

Jews depend on Israel in a substantial way.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

How so? Unless you mistakenly think that Jews depend on Israel in some substantial way.

Jews depend on Israel in a substantial way.

Not really.

[cinyc]

Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

How so? Unless you mistakenly think that Jews depend on Israel in some substantial way.

Israel is not just some multi-cultural country full of atheist Finns, Swedish Lutherans, Italian Catholics and Japanese Shintoists.  It's the Jewish homeland with an Arab minority.  Many (but not all) people who oppose the existence of Israel do so because they simply hate Jews.

[Brittain33]

Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

How so? Unless you mistakenly think that Jews depend on Israel in some substantial way.

Jews depend on Israel in a substantial way.

Not really.

Yes, really.

I'm grateful to be an American, fully identify as such, and feel safe here. I have no interest in living in Israel. But there have been Jews in other situations who felt the same way about their countries, until suddenly they couldn't any more.

I'm damn lucky that the U.S. of 1885-1915 had a much more open immigration policy than the U.S. of 2010, for example. The Germans arrived in the city where my grandfather was born, and his cousins still lived, in the first few days of Barbarossa.

Some of his cousins didn't emigrate until the 1920s, when the rules were tightened. They ended up in Canada. Specifically, Montreal. Some are still there, some had to move on further in the 1970s because they weren't part of the right "nation." My aunt's family went from Russia to Cuba to Montreal to Toronto. And by comparison to most Jews, they were fortunate. In comparison to most Jews, I'm incomparably lucky.

[Brittain33]

Many (but not all) people who oppose the existence of Israel do so because they simply hate Jews.

I would say that for many people, questioning the existence of Israel is analogous to questioning the need for the Civil Rights Act. It doesn't come from bigotry, but it may come from, perhaps, selective intellectualization of the human experience that would strike them as unthinkable if applied to a different subject, or perhaps because it's unthinkable it ever would be applied to a different subject.

(Anyone else want to question the existence of Mexico?)

[Robespierre's Jaw]

Ah the world's greatest democracy can't even allow freedom of speech to prevail in the personification of its power.

[Brittain33]

Ah the world's greatest democracy can't even allow freedom of speech to prevail in the personification of its power.

Has Helen Thomas been arrested?!

[Robespierre's Jaw]

Ah the world's greatest democracy can't even allow freedom of speech to prevail in the personification of its power.

Has Helen Thomas been arrested?!

No, but the condemnation seems as though she had been.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Hey Roch, I do oppose settelements. Am I an anti-semite?

If you oppose the existence of Israel and think the Jews should go back to Germany and Poland, where they were slaughtered in the millions by Hitler and his minions, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  Just like Helen Thomas.  Good riddance to her!

Wow that's funny.

No, I don't oppose existence of Israel, I oppose new settelements. But if I opposed existence of Israel, would that make me an anti-semite?

There is an "and" in my sentence.  Opposing the existence of Israel comes very close to the line, though.

You know, there are even anti-Zionist Jews. Are they close to self-hating?

While I'm probably in minority there due to my 100% support for existence of Israel (thought not certain Israeli policies), such narrow-minded classifications pisses me off.

[Brittain33]

Ah the world's greatest democracy can't even allow freedom of speech to prevail in the personification of its power.

Has Helen Thomas been arrested?!

No, but the condemnation seems as though she had been.

Condemnation, as in, other people's free speech in response to hers, and her employer's decision to react to it.

[Brittain33]

You know, there are even anti-Zionist Jews. Are they close to self-hating?

Why is it so important to you to find out what you think we think your motivations are or what loaded terms you want us to use? Is that really important?

[cinyc]

Ah the world's greatest democracy can't even allow freedom of speech to prevail in the personification of its power.

Has Helen Thomas been arrested?!

No, but the condemnation seems as though she had been.

Hint:  The First Amendment doesn't protect someone expressing abhorrent views from public scorn and ridicule.  In fact, it equally protects that scorn from government suppression.   

I don't mind idiots like Helen Thomas from making their abhorrent views known.  At least I know who the anti-Semites are.

[Brittain33]

Oh, hey. Me and Cinyc are on the same side! Next thing I'll be calling myself an Independent Democrat and praising female wrestlers.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

You know, there are even anti-Zionist Jews. Are they close to self-hating?

Why is it so important to you to find out what you think we think your motivations are or what loaded terms you want us to use? Is that really important?

No, I just want to outline one clear difference: opposing existence of Israel in Palestine itself (which I support) doesn't automatically makes people anti-semites.

[Brittain33]

No, I just want to outline one clear difference: opposing existence of Israel in Palestine itself (which I support) doesn't automatically makes people anti-semites.

Ok. For what it's worth, there is very little on this Earth that I would say "automatically" makes anyone "anti-anything," and I get frustrated at these discussions because in the U.S. one consequence of making racism and anti-Semitism beyond the pale is that we're unable to have any kind of discussion about them because it's perceived as an attack on the person's reason or sanity. It's one reason I almost never use the word anti-Semitic, people automatically shut down their ears if they hear it. It's worse for "racist."

Secondly, I can not figure out what you actually believe based on your statement above. I apologize, I completely forget you're not a native speaker most of the time you post, but in this case you've qualified things such that I don't understand.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

No, I just want to outline one clear difference: opposing existence of Israel in Palestine itself (which I support) doesn't automatically makes people anti-semites.

Ok. For what it's worth, there is very little on this Earth that I would say "automatically" makes anyone "anti-anything," and I get frustrated at these discussions because in the U.S. one consequence of making racism and anti-Semitism beyond the pale is that we're unable to have any kind of discussion about them because it's perceived as an attack on the person's reason or sanity. It's one reason I almost never use the word anti-Semitic, people automatically shut down their ears if they hear it. It's worse for "racist."

Secondly, I can not figure out what you actually believe based on your statement above. I apologize, I completely forget you're not a native speaker most of the time you post, but in this case you've qualified things such that I don't understand.

Ok, let me put this way: Helen Thomas comment was idiotic and I disagree with it. However, calling her an anti-semite, which some posters did, based solely on this one, is equally stupid.

My point was: opposing the existence of the state of Israel doesn't make anyone anti-semite per se. It's just like calling a person which calls for, for example, returning Texas to Mexico, an "American hater".

And I don't know why are you going personal.

[Robespierre's Jaw]

Hint:  The First Amendment doesn't protect someone expressing abhorrent views from public scorn and ridicule.  In fact, it equally protects that scorn from government suppression.

You may be right but my perception of America is one of a nation that clings onto the ideals of its founding fathers; such as the freedom of speech, religion, etc and yet when one person, or those in minority expresses "abhorrent views" that don't express that of the wider community they quickly denounce them and swiftly work to take away such freedom.

I don't mind idiots like Helen Thomas from making their abhorrent views known.  At least I know who the anti-Semites are.

Just because you oppose Israel, or my case the recent actions of the Israeli government, does not mean you are an anti-Semite.

[Lunar]

If a Russian opposes the existence of Poland, what would be the best description for his views?

It depends, are they hoping all poles go back to "where they came from" or all Catholics from the region are expelled?