Helen Thomas to Retire

[Lunar]

The way she phrased her comments is clearly offensive and she apologized for them. But there's nothing wrong with the sentiment that the Israelis should leave the occupied territories.

Given that immigration from Germany and Poland is associated with the first period of Israeli independence, and that Palestine typically refers to the whole territory, it's not clear that she meant the West Bank and not all of what was once Palestine... nor does it seem that your reading of her remarks is the more common one. And if that's what she meant, the Israelis could scuttle back across the Green Line and go back to Israel instead of "home" to Germany, but she conspicuously didn't say that. At the very least, if she meant all of Israel, Gaza, and the WB, can you see why people would take that a little harder...

Indeed.  If she were only referencing Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories (read: West Bank, Gaza Strip), the solution wouldn't have been to "go home" to Poland, Germany, and America, but rather to Isreali cities.  I don't see how that can be an interpretation of what she said.  

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't see how that can be an interpretation of what she said.  

It's called moral evasion and is remarkably popular when people take sides in ethnic conflicts. See also, Yugoslavia (Former) and Northern Ireland.

[Earth]

Where I'm from, 'send the buggers back' is pretty much the definition of 'racist'.

Except there is a legitimate argument that the Israelis have no right to be there at all.

Shockingly enough, racists tend to think that non-whites (and Poles) have no right to be in Britain at all and are pretty sure that there's is a legitimate argument.

Really? You see no distinction between the two arguments?

Can we not do "All Things Being Equal" day?

[Lunar]

Also: To everyone in this thread that defends her because she's an old woman...what?  If she's lost her marbles, maybe she shouldn't be the #1 person anymore in White House press briefings.

Yes, there's a double standard in these types of absurd comments, see my Huckabee quote earlier in this thread said that all of the Palestinians should just leave, as they are Arabs and can make a home anywhere in the Middle East.  That's pretty damn offensive too, and that double-standard shouldn't exist.

But even those who view Israel's actions on the Flotilla as inexcusable, should find Thomas's statement repugnant.

But that doesn't excuse Thomas's crazy stuff here.  It's not remotely defensible.  What kind of policy could be implemented to force Israelis to return to Germany and Poland?  It doesn't make any sense.

She occupies the most central role in the White House Press!  She occupies the center seat, front row, despite the fact that she's not a reporter but rather a columnist.   If she's a crazy old lady, fine, but that's all the more reason for her to retire.  She has done amazing things in her life, but if she can't hold it together when a Rabbi is holding a flip-cam asking about her opinions on Palestine (as was the case for this scandal), she needs to rethink her career.


With her decades of experience, wouldn't she be LESS likely to be caught of guard saying nonsensical ramblings about how Israelis need to return to the country where they came from, than pretty much any politician out there?

[Earth]

But that doesn't excuse Thomas's crazy stuff here.  It's not remotely defensible.  What kind of policy could be implemented to force Israelis to return to Germany and Poland?  It doesn't make any sense.

It's easily defensible in that she's speaking her mind, and she's angry about the situation; Israel getting out of Palestine is a defensible position, but she's also mistaken in that it sounds like she ignored or is oblivious to the very obvious point that Israelis were born there.

I don't necessarily agree with them leaving the region to go to Europe, certainly not by force (which no one has mentioned, Lunar), but the entire statement was understandable, if not practical in any way. It doesn't make it a smart thing to say when everyone will invariably shit themselves in their righteousness, nor does it make it antisemitic.

Did she act as though Jews are scum, or they should be killed, or that they're 'lesser beings' than anyone else? Does her statement automatically imply it? Not at all.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

People need to read a dictionary. Seems like the definition of both 'racist', and 'antisemite' has been forgotten.

Agreed - like many of the people who call people opposed to President Obama's agendas "racist" simply for opposing a black president.

Who did this?

Jimmy Carter.

Jimmy Carter, that actress from 24.

[Lunar]

I don't necessarily agree with them leaving the region to go to Europe, certainly not by force (which no one has mentioned, Lunar),

lol, so that's the solution?  Every Jew in Israel voluntarily leave where they grew up and migrate to a country that they know nothing about?  To a country where they don't speak the language and aren't welcome, and would be likely to even be admitted legally?  That's the peaceful solution? 

Force is very much implied in the idea of the collapse of the Israeli state, and the migration of millions of Israelis to other countries.  There's no other way of talking about it.  There's no way that such a thing could occur without force.

We might as well be talking about Palestinians all voluntarily moving to the Sudan, while we are in fantasyland.

[Lunar]

Okay, next time I say "All Mexican-Americans should go back to where they came from, South America" as a serious solution to a serious policy problem, please make sure to note that I actually meant "voluntarily," and that isn't racist.  And if you mention that I don't know what I'm talking about Re: South America...

Or, otherwise, like me, find such comments offensive, infeasible, and stupid.

[Earth]

I don't think I have to mention that Jews leaving the region en masse is another fantasyland idea, but hey, here we are. There is no solution. If Jews want to leave, so be it, but voluntarily. It's a non issue to me.

Force is very much implied in the idea of the collapse of the Israeli state.  There's no other way of talking about it.  

Force in what way? I'm not talking about mass migrations, I couldn't care less about that nonsense. The collapse of a state doesn't necessarily imply the migration of it's inhabitants, after all.

This is for another thread, but if we're talking about the collapse of Israel as a sovereign state, then it's a political, and not demographic collapse.  

[Lunar]

I don't think I have to mention that Jews leaving the region en masse is another fantasyland idea, but hey, here we are. There is no solution. If Jews want to leave, so be it, but voluntarily. It's a non issue to me.

Force is very much implied in the idea of the collapse of the Israeli state.  There's no other way of talking about it.  

But that's not a solution.  That's akin to Americans leaving America to the countries that their ancestors once came from.  It's not on the table, it's stupid, and it doesn't make sense.

there's no way that anyone sane can suggest what Thomas did (which is why she apologized, she smart enough to realize what she said was ridiculous).  And even if it were a hypothetical, her facts are all screwy regarding Germany and Poland, and pretty offensive at that.  But it was made in an offhand manner, and this isn't about her anymore.  If you put any person in front of a camera long enough, they'll be bound to say something offensive, but I don't see why that needs to be defended.

[Earth]

What exactly are you arguing against? I thought I made myself clear that migration would be a dumb thing. I'm defending her outrage, and the ability to say outrageous things. I hope you can see how I could consider it understandable, but ultimately pointless.

Okay, next time I say "All Mexican-Americans should go back to where they came from, South America" as a serious solution to a serious policy problem, please make sure to note that I actually meant "voluntarily," and that isn't racist.

You may not even be stupid, just spectacularly ignorant, and yet, I wouldn't really try to estimate your personality from that statement, nor get my panties in a bunch by being offended, nor would I inflate it beyond what it is.

[Lunar]

What exactly are you arguing against? I thought I made myself clear that migration would be a dumb thing. I'm defending her outrage, and the ability to say outrageous things. I hope you can see how I could consider it understandable, but ultimately pointless.

She can say anything outrageous she wants.  It's her right.  But, she works for a company which also has the right to evaluate those statements in terms of her employment.

Okay, next time I say "All Mexican-Americans should go back to where they came from, South America" as a serious solution to a serious policy problem, please make sure to note that I actually meant "voluntarily," and that isn't racist.

You may not even be stupid, just spectacularly ignorant, and yet, I wouldn't really try to estimate your personality from that statement, nor get my panties in a bunch by being offended, nor would I inflate it beyond what it is.

I edited my post above too late.  I don't think Thomas is anti-semitic.  I think she said something very offensive and very stupid by mistake, and should suffer the consequences.  I'm not judging Thomas, I'm judging what she said.   And given the fact that the only reason she gets the front-row center seat, despite being the only person in the front row who isn't a reporter, should definitely be reevaluated after she says something so absurd.   I wouldn't have been inclined to force her to retire, but rather give her the same seating location as the rest of the columnists in the White House Press Corps, the same treating as everyone else, in response.  She ended up being fired or retiring, which wasn't what I expected or would have expected, I just wanted her in the back row.  I think she's a good person, I'm not interested in judging her.

[Lief 🗽]

Okay, next time I say "All Mexican-Americans should go back to where they came from, South America" as a serious solution to a serious policy problem, please make sure to note that I actually meant "voluntarily," and that isn't racist.

Or, otherwise, like me, find such comments offensive, infeasible, and stupid.

Mexican-American immigrants in the United States are not comparable. A better comparison would be to English settlers in colonial America.

[Lunar]

Okay, next time I say "All Mexican-Americans should go back to where they came from, South America" as a serious solution to a serious policy problem, please make sure to note that I actually meant "voluntarily," and that isn't racist.

Or, otherwise, like me, find such comments offensive, infeasible, and stupid.

Mexican-American immigrants in the United States are not comparable. A better comparison would be to English settlers in colonial America.

I mean...maybe.   English settlers don't have the same history as Israelis with the Holocaust and the statelessness & worldwide discrimination that Jews felt after WW2, there was really a feeling that if they couldn't establish themselves a Jewish state, they would be forced to suffer additional Holocausts.

To say "All Americans of English blood should be forced to return to Britain" is too frickin' ridiculous of a statement to even be considered racist, let alone serious.  While saying "All Jews in Israel should be swept out of Palestine and go home to where they came from" is very offensive although just as impractical as the English one above.   But the difference is that this is a real belief in certain parts of the world today.  


I'm not a big defender of what Israel's been doing lately, it's been pretty ignorant, but the idea that Israelis should all just go home to Germany and Poland?  That's insane, but it's contemporary enough to recent tragedies that it's offensive.  Saying people with the last name of Smith, or other English surnames, should be deported to the United Kingdom is so insane that it's not offensive, it's just silly, so I don't think it's comparable.  

[Torie]

Lunar, it is always a tough road to separate advocating the liquidation of the state of Israel, from the matter of being a Jew hater, as you know, since Israel is now so inextricably tied to what it means to be Jewish these days. It is theoretically possible, but I suspect few really fit that theory.

As to Helen, I don't think she is a very thoughtful person, and never took much of what she said seriously. She rarely got below the first layer of the onion, on anything. In a word, she was mediocre as to what she did as a reporter, and something of a lovable laughingstock, who now has, deservedly, become unlovable, which is a sad exit for someone who is 89.

It is an object lesson, that when you know that you are losing it, it is time to retire to the shadows, or at least from anything that requires the exercise of some substantial responsibility, on which others depend. But that requires being honest with one's self, which is sometimes the hardest thing to do of all.

[Torie]

I would suffer far, far less being deported to the UK, as the whatever number generations hence seed of some ancestral crime of European germs killing off 95% of native Americans,  than most Israelis would be, being deported to Germany, for a host of rather obvious reasons. Just a thought.

[Lunar]

I would suffer far, far less being deported to the UK, as the whatever number generations hence seed of some ancestral crime of European germs killing off 95% of native Americans,  than most Israelis would be, being deported to Germany, for a host of rather obvious reasons. Just a thought.

Of course, and you would [more or less] speak the same language the British and [more or less] be of the same cultural-religious background.  And you wouldn't have the recent memories of the Holocaust.

The idea that, say, to make up a number, 100,000 Israelis who descended from Polish Holocaust survivors, could just move back there is crazy.  

[The Mikado]

The "Jews should just go back to Poland and Germany" line commits the "all Jews are Ashkenazi" mistake that so many people seem to buy off on.  I doubt very much that Iraqi or Yemeni Jewry would fit in very well in Berlin.

[Lunar]

The "Jews should just go back to Poland and Germany" line commits the "all Jews are Ashkenazi" mistake that so many people seem to buy off on.  I doubt very much that Iraqi or Yemeni Jewry would fit in very well in Berlin.

To be fair, she said something akin to "Germany, Poland, America, or wherever they came from."

But it was quite the stupid statement.  And, very few would go willingly, so it would inevitably be, as per her solution, the forceful expulsion of millions of Jews from Israel to countries that would not want them, and result in statelessness for the Jewish people en masse.

She knew her offhand comment was wrong, and she knew it immediately after it caught fire.  She's not afraid of controversy, she's caused it before, she just knew what she said was wrong, so let's not treat it like policy proposal.

[Gustaf]

Those who are anti-Israel tend to display a surprising lack of knowledge about, well, everything regarding the conflict, despite being so radical and convinced of their opinions.

I can actually understand the outrage...it proves the Likudist extremists right when they equate anti-Israel sentiments (which is understandable) with anti-semitism. Suddenly, criticizing Israel's actions or supporting Palestinian statehood leads to Jews being driven away, sent "home", scattered over the world subject to persecution, etc.

This really is a conflict where both sides often do their best to fit the stereotypes of their enemies.   

[??????????]

Gustaf, she literally said they should "get the hell out".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What's especially stunning is that a White American said this. Hahahaha.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Also: To everyone in this thread that defends her because she's an old woman...what?  If she's lost her marbles, maybe she shouldn't be the #1 person anymore in White House press briefings.

Who the hell disagrees with that?  She is an old woman, and has other issues clearly, but did we who told old people stories suggest she should remain?  Hardly.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Hey Roch, I do oppose settelements. Am I an anti-semite?

If you oppose the existence of Israel and think the Jews should go back to Germany and Poland, where they were slaughtered in the millions by Hitler and his minions, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  Just like Helen Thomas.  Good riddance to her!

Wow that's funny.

No, I don't oppose existence of Israel, I oppose new settelements. But if I opposed existence of Israel, would that make me an anti-semite?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Hey Roch, I do oppose settelements. Am I an anti-semite?

If you oppose the existence of Israel and think the Jews should go back to Germany and Poland, where they were slaughtered in the millions by Hitler and his minions, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  Just like Helen Thomas.  Good riddance to her!

Wow that's funny.

No, I don't oppose existence of Israel, I oppose new settelements. But if I opposed existence of Israel, would that make me an anti-semite?

No.