Helen Thomas to Retire

[fezzyfestoon]

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Sure, just as General Government was what Nazi Germany made.

The unfortunate fact (for now) is that there is no Palestine.  There should be a Palestine, and once there is, Israelis will have no right to take that land, but at this moment, Israel controls all of that land.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support a two state solution, but at this time any claim to Palestinian Land is simply wrong.

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

I'm not suggesting that; I'm saying it is insulting that Jews are being told to "Go back to where you came from."

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Sure, just as General Government was what Nazi Germany made.

The unfortunate fact (for now) is that there is no Palestine.  There should be a Palestine, and once there is, Israelis will have no right to take that land, but at this moment, Israel controls all of that land.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support a two state solution, but at this time any claim to Palestinian Land is simply wrong.

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

I'm not suggesting that; I'm saying it is insulting that Jews are being told to "Go back to where you came from."

Sorry Ben, I misread your intentions.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

I wish there would be more Jews in Poland today. Jewish people contribution to our history and culture was trurly invaluable. Before WWII there were 3 millions, after just few tousands left.

Good job, German assholes.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Sorry Ben, I misread your intentions.

No problem; I want to be as clear as possible

Oh, and I couldn't agree more about there being more Jews in Poland.  It is a terrible shame, the losses throughout Eastern Europe - once it was a great culture, and now so few remain.

[Lief 🗽]

The Israelis should get out of Palestinian territories, like she said. They are illegally occupying them and illegally settling in them.

Palestinian territory is whatever Israel makes it.  And besides, telling them to go back to Poland or Germany is beyond the pale.  It's insulting.

Telling the Israelis to get out of Palestine is no more insulting than your first sentence.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Lunar, the "what if"s aren't useful....she didn't say those things.  Let's judge her on what she really said.

[Lunar]

Lunar, the "what if"s aren't useful....she didn't say those things.  Let's judge her on what she really said.

I already have judged her on what she really said.  Hypotheticals are a way to pull the issue out of the context of whether or not you like Israel or not, and to realize that the core of what she said was wrong.

I feel it was antisemitic and wrong, as well as historically inaccurate and infeasible, and I believe she realizes what she said was wrong.  

[Ronnie]

I always hated her.  Thank goodness she will go.

[??????????]

Is it true that she has to sneak up on milk so it doesn't curdle?

[Brittain33]

Look at that. One of the few members of the press who is not an unquestioning lackey of the Israel lobby pushed out by the fake outrage of the Israel lobby.

I disagree with AIPAC and Netanyahu's government, but personally I was offended by her comment and was hoping for some kind of apology. Israel is not a binary issue (despite Likud's best efforts to make it such.) 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

She should retire. Not for this, but for being almost 90.

Granted the comment was very insensitively worded and could've been said much better. As noted, it's not like third generation Israelis could move to Germany easily. Of course, there's no question as to whether it's safer now to be a Jew in Germany or Jew in Israel.

[Brittain33]

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

No, it's the suggestion of "you shouldn't live where you were born or where your parents were born, go back to some country where they don't want you anyway and really don't want you and 4,000,000 of your friends back now asking for an extra set of keys."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I doubt immigration from Israel to Germany is that difficult, certainly not more so than immigration to Germany from Turkey or wherever (not that it's fair to demand all Israelis with German roots to move back, just replying to the "don't want you anyway" bit.)

[Brittain33]

I doubt immigration from Israel to Germany is that difficult, certainly not more so than immigration to Germany from Turkey or wherever (not that it's fair to demand all Israelis with German roots to move back, just replying to the "don't want you anyway" bit.)

I think it probably isn't hard to migrate and get residency, but that situation is predicated on it being small numbers of people coming and not a mass migration. A few thousand a year is not a problem, but larger numbers would drive a change in policy, the same way the UK tightened up its policies on immigration once it realized that several million Hong Kong residents might take them up on the offer pre-1997.

Germany is unusual among countries in that it had close to an open door policy for ex-Soviet Jewish immigrants in the 1990s. That's how the Jewish population increased from something like 33,000 to 200,000. I give them a lot of credit for that. But even so, while Germany is self-conscious about its past and not as ready to engage in immigrant-bashing as other countries in Europe, it still has a difficult time thinking of immigrants as anything but non-German. Jews would be "welcome" there as much as any other immigrant, but that welcome isn't particularly warm. And this is normal, or even better than the average reception for immigrants. My point is that I'm not singling out Germany when I say they don't want the Jews back. (Now Austria, on the other hand, really doesn't want its Jews back...)

[Lunar]

The Israelis should get out of Palestinian territories, like she said. They are illegally occupying them and illegally settling in them.

Palestinian territory is whatever Israel makes it.  And besides, telling them to go back to Poland or Germany is beyond the pale.  It's insulting.

Telling the Israelis to get out of Palestine is no more insulting than your first sentence.

So you agree both are offensive?  (Note the Huck quote I posted earlier in this thread)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Where I'm from, 'send the buggers back' is pretty much the definition of 'racist'.

Except there is a legitimate argument that the Israelis have no right to be there at all.

Shockingly enough, racists tend to think that non-whites (and Poles) have no right to be in Britain at all and are pretty sure that there's is a legitimate argument.

[Lunar]

I doubt immigration from Israel to Germany is that difficult, certainly not more so than immigration to Germany from Turkey or wherever (not that it's fair to demand all Israelis with German roots to move back, just replying to the "don't want you anyway" bit.)

I think it probably isn't hard to migrate and get residency, but that situation is predicated on it being small numbers of people coming and not a mass migration. A few thousand a year is not a problem, but larger numbers would drive a change in policy, the same way the UK tightened up its policies on immigration once it realized that several million Hong Kong residents might take them up on the offer pre-1997.

Germany is unusual among countries in that it had close to an open door policy for ex-Soviet Jewish immigrants in the 1990s. That's how the Jewish population increased from something like 33,000 to 200,000. I give them a lot of credit for that. But even so, while Germany is self-conscious about its past and not as ready to engage in immigrant-bashing as other countries in Europe, it still has a difficult time thinking of immigrants as anything but non-German. Jews would be "welcome" there as much as any other immigrant, but that welcome isn't particularly warm. And this is normal, or even better than the average reception for immigrants. My point is that I'm not singling out Germany when I say they don't want the Jews back. (Now Austria, on the other hand, really doesn't want its Jews back...)

And indeed, as has been noted, I don't believe that the majority of Israelis are from German or Polish Jewish immigrants, at least not where that would be the primary identity.  I'm not an expert though.

Although even ignoring Thomas's profound lack of understanding of that fact, or the idea that third-generation Israelis could even move back to their home countries, it shows remarkable naiveté to highlight those two countries in particular, as far as I can tell, any Jews from descent of either of those two countries, would be very much guaranteed to be from the descent of Holocaust survivors, or from those who fled to other countries right before the Holocaust.  

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's not like third-generation Israelis could even legally migrate back to Eastern Europe

Or to the rest of the Middle East, which is where a very high proportion of Israeli families came from originally.

[Lunar]

Where I'm from, 'send the buggers back' is pretty much the definition of 'racist'.

Except there is a legitimate argument that the Israelis have no right to be there at all.

So what happens when you forcibly deport millions of people, who have lived in an area for generations, to countries that refuse to accept them?  "Legitimate" arguments that have no connection to reality are hardly legitimate.

Is there a legitimate argument that Americans stole all this North American land, and have no right to live in the United States?  Is it "legitimate" to say that Americans not of Native American descent should be forcibly deported to the country of their ancestors?  Hogwash.   Once people start living in an area for generations, no such legitimacy exists.

[Lunar]

It's not like third-generation Israelis could even legally migrate back to Eastern Europe

Or to the rest of the Middle East, which is where a very high proportion of Israeli families came from originally.

There might be a few such states in the Middle East that would accept such a "compromise" where they accept Israeli immigrants in exchange for the complete abolition of the Jewish state actually...

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Suggesting that living in Poland or Germany is somehow dangerous or horrible is insulting.

No, it's the suggestion of "you shouldn't live where you were born or where your parents were born, go back to some country where they don't want you anyway and really don't want you and 4,000,000 of your friends back now asking for an extra set of keys."

Kind of like what the Israeli occupiers did as they bulldozed Palestinians off of their own land?

[Lief 🗽]

The Israelis should get out of Palestinian territories, like she said. They are illegally occupying them and illegally settling in them.

Palestinian territory is whatever Israel makes it.  And besides, telling them to go back to Poland or Germany is beyond the pale.  It's insulting.

Telling the Israelis to get out of Palestine is no more insulting than your first sentence.

So you agree both are offensive?  (Note the Huck quote I posted earlier in this thread)

The way she phrased her comments is clearly offensive and she apologized for them. But there's nothing wrong with the sentiment that the Israelis should leave the occupied territories.

[Brittain33]

The way she phrased her comments is clearly offensive and she apologized for them. But there's nothing wrong with the sentiment that the Israelis should leave the occupied territories.

Given that immigration from Germany and Poland is associated with the first period of Israeli independence, and that Palestine typically refers to the whole territory, it's not clear that she meant the West Bank and not all of what was once Palestine... nor does it seem that your reading of her remarks is the more common one. And if that's what she meant, the Israelis could scuttle back across the Green Line and go back to Israel instead of "home" to Germany, but she conspicuously didn't say that. At the very least, if she meant all of Israel, Gaza, and the WB, can you see why people would take that a little harder...

[Earth]

The Israelis should get out of Palestinian territories, like she said. They are illegally occupying them and illegally settling in them.

Palestinian territory is whatever Israel makes it.  And besides, telling them to go back to Poland or Germany is beyond the pale.  It's insulting.

I'd say it's not even near just desserts considering the Israeli government's abuses. Some old woman telling it like it is, is hardly an issue.