I know that expected inflation is fine, but what about the decline in real wages

[Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.]

over time?

[Torie]

That suggests that the value added from labor is declining. In the end, the only real fix, is workers having more value added skills.

[opebo]

That suggests that the value added from labor is declining. In the end, the only real fix, is workers having more value added skills.

Actually no, it doesn't suggest that at all.  It suggests that the share of production expropriated by those who control labor (owners) is increasing.

[Torie]

That suggests that the value added from labor is declining. In the end, the only real fix, is workers having more value added skills.

Actually no, it doesn't suggest that at all.  It suggests that the share of production expropriated by those who control labor (owners) is increasing.

I know you believe that, but redistribution won't achieve your goal, beyond making the rich less rich. It won't make the standard of living of Joe Sixpack change much, unless Joe gets more value added skills. If you have some respected authority that suggests something other than higher value added skill levels will make much of a long term difference, please direct me to it, Opebo.

[opebo]

That suggests that the value added from labor is declining. In the end, the only real fix, is workers having more value added skills.

Actually no, it doesn't suggest that at all.  It suggests that the share of production expropriated by those who control labor (owners) is increasing.

I know you believe that, but redistribution won't achieve your goal, beyond making the rich less rich. It won't make the standard of living of Joe Sixpack change much, unless Joe gets more value added skills. If you have some respected authority that suggests something other than higher value added skill levels will make much of a long term difference, please direct me to it, Opebo.

Production goes up because of - well, because of something, it doesn't really matter much what, but perhaps technology - Torie.  Then, the proceeds are divided up between toilers and controllers.  Who says what is 'value added' skill?   What we 'value' is a political choice, not some naturally occurring phenomenon, and after all we place an enormously greater 'value' on ownership (political power) than on any skill or for that matter any actual input into the productive process. 

In any case the idea that any worker can 'compete' is really quite comical. 

[opebo]

...redistribution won't achieve your goal, beyond making the rich less rich.

Oh and by the way, I'm not sure what you think is my goal, but making the rich less rich would in itself be enough.  In point of fact my political position is less to advocate change (which I believe will never happen) than to merely point out how foolish it is for the 99% to support the status quo as they do. 

I actually do ok in the current system, I'm just annoyed that the slaves are so cheerful and all.

[Torie]

"Value" in this context, Opebo, means how much someone is able to pay you for your time, and still make enough profit to make it worthwhile for that someone, because you enable that someone to sell something for more, or enjoy life that much more.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

There are long-term structural problems with employment in this country. See this link.

http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

[Torie]

There are long-term structural problems with employment in this country. See this link.

http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Ever since the Luddites, folks have been worrying about technology leading to permanent higher structural unemployment, on the theory that folks will have nothing of value to offer from their labor, and it never seems to happen. You know, telephone calls used to require manual processing, and there were literally tens of thousands of mostly women wearing roller skates who would manipulate the plugs. Those jobs are all gone now, along even with getting live folks to give you telephone numbers when you call 411. Statistical and much other quantitative work, used to take endless hours. Now it is done by computers in seconds. So if the past is not going to be the future, what is the new and unique paradigm shift at work here?

[Beet]

There are long-term structural problems with employment in this country. See this link.

http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Ever since the Luddites, folks have been worrying about technology leading to permanent higher structural unemployment, on the theory that folks will have nothing of value to offer from their labor, and it never seems to happen. You know, telephone calls used to require manual processing, and there were literally tens of thousands of mostly women wearing roller skates who would manipulate the plugs. Those jobs are all gone now, along even with getting live folks to give you telephone numbers when you call 411. Statistical and much other quantitative work, used to take endless hours. Now it is done by computers in seconds. So if the past is not going to be the future, what is the new and unique paradigm shift at work here?

The problem is that the new jobs are all being created for people who have years of education. Health care, education, technology, engineering, architecture, high grade manufacturing, design, etc. etc.

So what do we do about the stupid people? Or rather, what do the stupid people do?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

There are long-term structural problems with employment in this country. See this link.

http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Ever since the Luddites, folks have been worrying about technology leading to permanent higher structural unemployment, on the theory that folks will have nothing of value to offer from their labor, and it never seems to happen. You know, telephone calls used to require manual processing, and there were literally tens of thousands of mostly women wearing roller skates who would manipulate the plugs. Those jobs are all gone now, along even with getting live folks to give you telephone numbers when you call 411. Statistical and much other quantitative work, used to take endless hours. Now it is done by computers in seconds. So if the past is not going to be the future, what is the new and unique paradigm shift at work here?

The problem is that the new jobs are all being created for people who have years of education. Health care, education, technology, engineering, architecture, high grade manufacturing, design, etc. etc.

So what do we do about the stupid people? Or rather, what do the stupid people do?

That would be fine if true, but the point of the article is that the total number of jobs will decline. Of course the more educated will have a lower unemployment rate than the less educated, but theirs will still go up.

[Torie]

The stupid people can serve in the service industries, where the human touch is still worth something. Heck, I like real people to fish out clothes for me at Nortstroms, and take them to the changing room where I am encamped, for me to try on if I think they have potential. I like competent waiters at restaurants. I like someone else to cut my lawn, and  clean my pool. And I will never understand how my home theatre system works, and need techs on a periodic basis, to bail me out. Even research activities, need a host of techs and grunts as back up to clean the test tubes, etc. And of course, we will always need a horde of folks to tend to those with physical or mental problems.

In a word, the demand for human services will always be near insatiable. It is just a matter of their price.

[Beet]

In a word, the demand for human services will always be near insatiable. It is just a matter of their price.

Ah, yes. The continued sinking of the working class into poverty is the solution to the problem. It turns out Malthus may have been on to something after all.

[phk]

Folks... jobs can be created in a high productivity environment, assuming that output growth is faster than productivity growth.

[Torie]

In a word, the demand for human services will always be near insatiable. It is just a matter of their price.

Ah, yes. The continued sinking of the working class into poverty is the solution to the problem. It turns out Malthus may have been on to something after all.

No, actually not. In fact, delivering goods and services more cheaply via technology, make the real standard of living go up, and certainly the quality of life. It may exacerbate income inequalities, but that is not inconsistent with an overall increase in the standard of living for most folks. Granted, for low skilled jobs, there is currently a downward pressure on incomes, as China's and India's billions work their way into the market economy. When that process concludes within a generation, and the world's population ages overall, look for low skilled wages to go way up, as labor becomes the choke point input, rather than capital.

[phk]

There are long-term structural problems with employment in this country. See this link.

http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

I always make it a point to do an automated checkout at Ralphs's and at Carls Jr or Jack in the Box, I always use the kiosk.

[opebo]

Folks... jobs can be created in a high productivity environment, assuming that output growth is faster than productivity growth.

Precisely!  Which is why the way to create 'full employment' in a high productivity economy is to place a very large segment of the work force in a comfortable dole, and require extremely high wages for the remainder (the dole alone will do this if it is generous enough). 

We need 20 hour work weeks, $50/hour, and $1,500/month doles in order to consume enough to sop up the high-productivity.  Otherwise it all just piles up in the coffers of the .1% and the whole house of cards collapses.

[phk]

Folks... jobs can be created in a high productivity environment, assuming that output growth is faster than productivity growth.

Precisely!  Which is why the way to create 'full employment' in a high productivity economy is to place a very large segment of the work force in a comfortable dole, and require extremely high wages for the remainder (the dole alone will do this if it is generous enough). 

We need 20 hour work weeks, $50/hour, and $1,500/month doles in order to consume enough to sop up the high-productivity.  Otherwise it all just piles up in the coffers of the .1% and the whole house of cards collapses.

Btw. "Artificially" boosting production coupled with high productivity will lead to wasteful production. Though Keynes after all said in the LR we are all dead.

[opebo]

Btw. "Artificially" boosting production coupled with high productivity will lead to wasteful production. Though Keynes after all said in the LR we are all dead.

Hah, 'wasteful' is a completely subjective and rather useless term.

[phk]

Btw. "Artificially" boosting production coupled with high productivity will lead to wasteful production. Though Keynes after all said in the LR we are all dead.

Hah, 'wasteful' is a completely subjective and rather useless term.

Well, I suppose "excess" might be better. Production to take you too far away with from the general equilibrium.

[opebo]

Btw. "Artificially" boosting production coupled with high productivity will lead to wasteful production. Though Keynes after all said in the LR we are all dead.

Hah, 'wasteful' is a completely subjective and rather useless term.

Well, I suppose "excess" might be better. Production to take you too far away with from the general equilibrium.

Yes!  This is precisely what capitalism does - as we see at present.  Extreme inequality leads to an inadequacy of demand, collapsing the system.