Would you support a Generous Dole?

[opebo]

Let us say by generous we mean in the $1,200-1,500/month range, made up of a combination of rent-subsidy, 'food stamps', and a some cash.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Absolutely.

Would you support my idea from a few years ago where citizens are given vouchers of about $200-300 each year to use at strip clubs and those who don't use them are arrested for being prudes? I suppose they can be used at legal brothels as well.

[opebo]

Absolutely.

Would you support my idea from a few years ago where citizens are given vouchers of about $200-300 each year to use at strip clubs and those who don't use them are arrested for being prudes? I suppose they can be used at legal brothels as well.

Well, I wasn't being facetious, if that's what you're implying.  But its a fun thought.

[k-onmmunist]

No. The dole should be means-tested and there should be as little incentive for people to stay on it as possible.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Absolutely.

Would you support my idea from a few years ago where citizens are given vouchers of about $200-300 each year to use at strip clubs and those who don't use them are arrested for being prudes? I suppose they can be used at legal brothels as well.

Well, I wasn't being facetious, if that's what you're implying.  But its a fun thought.

I know you weren't. I just thought my proposal would be pretty cool if ever somehow got implemented.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I totally support Opebo's plan; not so much BRTD's.

[Bo]

I guess.

[Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.]

 a what?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Is Generous Dole any relation to Bob Dole, Elizabeth Dole, or Dole Pineapple?

[JSojourner]

Opebo,

I could support it, if targeted at the unemployed poor and the working poor.  And I would want to see the details fleshed out.

As to BRTD's idea, you will have to define which prudes you will arrest.  And for those of us who are marrieds, we may welcome the arrest as a kind of "quiet sabbatical". 

[Torie]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Gosh, that sounds like something I would pound out from my keyboard, almost word for word.

 Am I having a "bad" influence on you JS?  Is it possible I am moving you a tad bit from being a Marxist terrorist symp to just an extreme liberal? 

PS: jk as to the final sentence FYI to  those considerably more mentally challenged than JS.

[Vepres]

No, because while it makes the lives of the poor easier, but it doesn't do anything to decrease poverty, and is thus ignoring the root of the problem. Now, if they were working on an education, I could support a "Dole" but not as generous as opebo said.

[Magic 8-Ball]

I could support it, if targeted at the unemployed poor and the working poor.  And I would want to see the details fleshed out.

This, pretty much.  It should be used solely to help them make ends meet and help out with the bare necessities.  I would also want to see how they are currently allocating what they have...if you live in poverty but still have the premium cable package and high-speed internet, there's clearly something wrong here.

[Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.]

Let us say by generous we mean in the $1,200-1,500/month range, made up of a combination of rent-subsidy, 'food stamps', and a some cash.

where did you get the 1,200-1,500 number from?

[JSojourner]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Gosh, that sounds like something I would pound out from my keyboard, almost word for word.

 Am I having a "bad" influence on you JS?  Is it possible I am moving you a tad bit from being a Marxist terrorist symp to just an extreme liberal?  

PS: jk as to the final sentence FYI to  those considerably more mentally challenged than JS.

Ha, Torie!


In terms of writing style, I have admired your posts from day one.  And attempted to emulate them for their erudition and flow of thought.  It helps, too, that I read a lot.  Books are good, being all "facty" and stuff.  But there is a certain style of writing I appreciate...and it matters not a bit if the content is political, theological or historical (that's about all I read).  I just tend to pick up styles in the same way a person might pick up an accent.

In terms of your influence on my politics, it has always been considerable.  You've got heft, man, and anyone with heft has my rapt attention.  This explains my fondness for BRTD and Opebo.  Say what you will about their periodic forays into obsession and dramatic overstatement, these guys have engaged minds and can communicate.  Of course, I could list a dozen others of this caliber as well from across the political spectrum right here in our little clatch.  (I hope the "youngs" pay attention to them all.)

But yes, you do help moderate me a bit. (Franzl, too.  He is a good egg of the first order.)  And I hope I make your heart bleed a little. Of course, it's difficult with you, you know.  Sometimes you can be such a stone-hearted, right wing fascist. That is, when you're not busy being an extreme left-winger.  (I still get a hoot out of how you were called both things on the same day...)

[Lief 🗽]

Yes, but only if it's not means tested or some nonsense like that.

[nclib]

No, because while it makes the lives of the poor easier, but it doesn't do anything to decrease poverty, and is thus ignoring the root of the problem.

I wouldn't mind also having programs to create jobs, but given that the circumstances are difficult for many poor people, it is still desirable to them to be supported when/if they can't support themselves.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I could support it, if targeted at the unemployed poor and the working poor.  And I would want to see the details fleshed out.

This, pretty much.  It should be used solely to help them make ends meet and help out with the bare necessities.  I would also want to see how they are currently allocating what they have...if you live in poverty but still have the premium cable package and high-speed internet, there's clearly something wrong here.

I suppose you fully support the idea that the government also has the right to dictate exactly what corporations that receive any government money spend their money on...

Or do corporate execs deserve the freedom to spend government dollars as they please while the poor slogs get dialup and network TV?

[Vepres]

No, because while it makes the lives of the poor easier, but it doesn't do anything to decrease poverty, and is thus ignoring the root of the problem.

I wouldn't mind also having programs to create jobs, but given that the circumstances are difficult for many poor people, it is still desirable to them to be supported when/if they can't support themselves.

I can see unemployment insurance and disability benefits and such, but generally, if one is of able body and mind, receiving government money won't solve the issue. Education is key, and not just academic. After all, a lot of poor people never learned to responsibly manage money.

[Ban my account ffs!]

No, because while it makes the lives of the poor easier, but it doesn't do anything to decrease poverty, and is thus ignoring the root of the problem.

I wouldn't mind also having programs to create jobs, but given that the circumstances are difficult for many poor people, it is still desirable to them to be supported when/if they can't support themselves.

I can see unemployment insurance and disability benefits and such, but generally, if one is of able body and mind, receiving government money won't solve the issue. Education is key, and not just academic. After all, a lot of poor people never learned to responsibly manage money.

Managing money is harder when you don't have much to manage in the first place.  Education is key... but chronic unemployment thanks to market trends outside of your control should not be punished.  If our economy is such that we have 10% unemployment and can't go any lower.. then the working 90% will just have to pay for those other 10%... you can't educate yourself into a job anymore... most likely.. you can educate yourself into starting a business that will eventually fail.. but at least you'll have the loans to live off of while you try it.  Otherwise for most young people today it's retail or debt collecting that are the only places of opportunity.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

For obvious cultural reasons 'generous dole' seems oxymoronic to me

But I am a big fan of universalism and social solidarity in welfare systems.

[Magic 8-Ball]

I could support it, if targeted at the unemployed poor and the working poor.  And I would want to see the details fleshed out.

This, pretty much.  It should be used solely to help them make ends meet and help out with the bare necessities.  I would also want to see how they are currently allocating what they have...if you live in poverty but still have the premium cable package and high-speed internet, there's clearly something wrong here.

I suppose you fully support the idea that the government also has the right to dictate exactly what corporations that receive any government money spend their money on...

Or do corporate execs deserve the freedom to spend government dollars as they please while the poor slogs get dialup and network TV?

You suppose incorrectly. I tend to not support corporate handouts at all.  I'm not entirely sure why you assume otherwise.

The point of my post was that people shouldn't live beyond their means.  If you have trouble making ends meet, you first get rid of the nonessentials.  Showtime and FiOS are luxuries, no?

The part about looking at people's budgets was figurative; of course, there is no real way to ensure that people spend the money on food, shelter, clothing, and education.  For that matter, I didn't even say that the system was rife with such abuse.  But I do have trouble feeling sorry for those few who need the money, take the check, and still can't make ends meet while changing nothing on their end.  Is that unreasonable?

So, let's make this deal: I'll try to word my posts better, and you try to stop hacking away at straw men.  Sound good?

[Vepres]

No, because while it makes the lives of the poor easier, but it doesn't do anything to decrease poverty, and is thus ignoring the root of the problem.

I wouldn't mind also having programs to create jobs, but given that the circumstances are difficult for many poor people, it is still desirable to them to be supported when/if they can't support themselves.

I can see unemployment insurance and disability benefits and such, but generally, if one is of able body and mind, receiving government money won't solve the issue. Education is key, and not just academic. After all, a lot of poor people never learned to responsibly manage money.

Managing money is harder when you don't have much to manage in the first place.

Yeah, but when I see families with both parents working, one in two jobs, struggling to get by buying a Wii and a few games, I think it can help.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence, unemployment insurance.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why? The other 10% will just have to settle for lower paying jobs. There are always jobs if you look hard enough, perhaps not in your desired industry, but that is irrelevant in the current economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Of course you can. It may not benefit immediately in the current economy, but in a year or two you could certainly benefit from the education.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I read a study that said if you do your research, the business will have a 50% chance of long term success.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Not true. Businesses usually prefer people a few years out of college for grunt-level white collar jobs. My cousin graduated from college last year, and is on track to have a career in law enforcement.

Then again, you probably live in a more manufacturing-based area. I live in a more IT-based area. Relativity I suppose...

Edit: I'm not saying cut the welfare state, rather, I don't think it is productive to expand it.

[KeeptheChange]

No (sane)

Instead, I propose we reinforce the values that first carved this great country out of a wilderness.  Among them...

* Self-reliance
* Hard work
* Personal restraint and discipline
* A sense of responsibility

You know the old saying, Opebo.  Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.  (Or, he starves...and he deserves to starve, if he is too lazy and self-absorbed to work.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This, pretty much.  It should be used solely to help them make ends meet and help out with the bare necessities.

You know that the idea of an objective subsistence level is a myth, right? There is simply no way that you can determine what is needed to make ends meet or to work out what is an isn't a 'bare necessity'.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why?