Pope John Paul II self-flagellated to get closer to Jesus

[J. J.]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

[12th Doctor]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Good call with the hair shirt.  Certainly a very strong form of self-mortification that is practiced in the Bible.  John the Baptist wore hair clothing.

Anyway, I think in this case it is important to note somethings...

First, this is still just a rumor.  Second, even if it is true, he neither did it publicly to win praise for how great he was, nor did he inflict extreme mutilation on himself intended for that goal.  That is vanity.

As for the practice of self-flagellation, I neither endorse it, nor do I see anything wrong with it, so long as it is not done for show or excess.  Submission to God is, in part, elimination of subjugation to the ego.

And of course, BRTD once again proves that he did not read the article before passing judgment, because if he did then he would know that he would not have sounded original for bringing that subject up since it is, indeed, discussed in the article.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

Okay, well you me it seems obvious that what Paul is condemning there is false humility, but okay.

Actually, the word "false" does NOT occur in the text, but was added by the NIV translators.  A more literal translation of verse is found in the KJV:

23 “Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”

and also in the NAB:

23 “While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.”

the NIV use of "false humility" does not mean the person isn't being sincere, rather it is being used as a catch-all phrase and has nothing to do with sincerity, so i think paul is saying that any legalism (which would include harsh treatment of the body) is useless (false) humility.

for example, i think you and I would agree spinning a pickle on your nose before praying is a useless activity.  So, if someone believes that spinning a pickle on their nose brings them closer to obedience to God, that would be "false humility" because it is useless humility, regardless of how sincere the pickle spinner is.

That's what legalism is - a useless humility which attempts to manufacture favor from God, but actually wastes time and takes attention away from God.  That does NOT make humility in itself wrong, for not all humility is useless...it's just that the "false" humility of legalism robs God from getting glory by shifting focus onto self-abuse instead of a focus on Christ.

We have control over our flesh through Christ’s victory over the flesh on the cross, not through us abusing our flesh.  We don’t read about Jesus going around beating on himself, for he called his body the temple of God.   Likewise, Christians are the new temple of God, and we should care for our bodies.

[12th Doctor]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

Okay, well you me it seems obvious that what Paul is condemning there is false humility, but okay.

Actually, the word "false" does NOT occur in the text, but was added by the NIV translators.  A more literal translation of verse is found in the KJV:

23 “Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”

and also in the NAB:

23 “While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.”

the NIV use of "false humility" does not mean the person isn't being sincere, rather it is being used as a catch-all phrase and has nothing to do with sincerity, so i think paul is saying that any legalism (which would include harsh treatment of the body) is useless (false) humility.

for example, i think you and I would agree spinning a pickle on your nose before praying is a useless activity.  So, if someone believes that spinning a pickle on their nose brings them closer to obedience to God, that would be "false humility" because it is useless humility, regardless of how sincere the pickle spinner is.

That's what legalism is - a useless humility which attempts to manufacture favor from God, but actually wastes time and takes attention away from God.  That does NOT make humility in itself wrong, for not all humility is useless...it's just that the "false" humility of legalism robs God from getting glory by shifting focus onto self-abuse instead of a focus on Christ.

We have control over our flesh through Christ’s victory over the flesh on the cross, not through us abusing our flesh.  We don’t read about Jesus going around beating on himself, for he called his body the temple of God.   Likewise, Christians are the new temple of God, and we should care for our bodies.

Okay, well your argument is rendered absurd by J.J.'s excellent point regarding the hair clothing.  Hair clothing was used by people who were right with God as an extreme and lasting form of self-mortification.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

yeah, and John the Baptist wore sackcloth (hair shirt) also, and ate wild honey and locust and was a teetotaler and removed himself from society....but JESUS CHRIST WAS HIS POLAR OPPOSITE.

John the Baptist is not our example.  Jesus Christ is, and Jesus Christ and the Apostles did NOT go around in sackcloth and ashes.

---

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

There is no sackcloth mentioned in this verse.  In fact, the word “beat” doesn’t even occur here.  I more literal translation would be “take control over my body and bring it into submission”

[12th Doctor]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

yeah, and John the Baptist wore sackcloth (hair shirt) also, and ate wild honey and locust and was a teetotaler and removed himself from society....but JESUS CHRIST WAS HIS POLAR OPPOSITE.

John the Baptist is not our example.  Jesus Christ is, and Jesus Christ and the Apostles did NOT go around in sackcloth and ashes.

---

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

There is no sackcloth mentioned in this verse.  In fact, the word “beat” doesn’t even occur here.  I more literal translation would be “take control over my body and bring it into submission”

HAHA... okay, now you have really lost it.  If Jesus is our example, and John is not and they were exact opposites, then is it not the case that John is Anti-Christ, by your reasoning... as are many other prominent religious figures in the OT and NT.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Okay, well your argument is rendered absurd by J.J.'s excellent point regarding the hair clothing.  Hair clothing was used by people who were right with God as an extreme and lasting form of self-mortification.

The John the Baptist sackcloth types are NOT lifestyle examples for Christians...that was all before the new covenant was put into effect.

There is a HUGE glaring juxtaposition between the lifestyle of Jesus and the lifestyle of John the Baptist.  And the rest of the New Testament shows the Apostles using Jesus' lifestyle as their example and not the lifestyle of John the Baptist.

[phk]

Shi'ite Islam and Roman Catholicism are a lot alike. Just replace Imam Hossein with Jesus.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

HAHA... okay, now you have really lost it.  If Jesus is our example, and John is not and they were exact opposites, then is it not the case that John is Anti-Christ, by your reasoning... as are many other prominent religious figures in the OT and NT.

Youre stretching my remarks into areas where I did not apply them….obviously, I was NOT saying John the Baptist wasn't a godly man.  What I am saying is that his lifestyle (what he wore, what he ate, where he lived, his physical removal from society) was the TOTAL opposite of Jesus' lifestyle.

If you think John the Baptist is your lifestyle example, then I guess it is time for you to change:  your wardrobe (John the Baptist only wore sackcloth), your diet (John the Baptist only ate locust and wild honey), and your geographic relation to society (John the Baptist separated himself from society and lived in the wilderness).

But, before you transform yourself into John the Baptist and drop off the grid, I’d just like to say it’s been nice knowing you.

[JSojourner]

I certainly have no problem with asceticism.  I sometimes think we could all do with periods of it from time to time.  Self-denial is fine. (I suspect the hairshirt is probably more an ascetic tool than a masochistic one.) My concern is that self-flagellation confuses a person's soteriology.  We are saved, justified, redeemed (use what word you prefer) by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.  Not by any suffering or pain we inflict on ourselves. Of equal concern, and surely of great concern to the Father who loves and cares for our well-being, is that sometimes self-flagellation can put one's body is serious danger.  Now, I am not implying that my Opus Dei brothers and sisters are suicidal or anything.  But small cuts can get infected and turn into major health problems.  Beatings can cause internal damage.  How is this being a good steward of the body given to us by God?

As to St. Paul saying "I beat my body", I would encourage a look at the original language.  "Beat" may be (I am not sure if it is) a poor 1611 translation. I have seen other versions of Scripture use the words, "buffet", "control", "bridle" and "master". Wouldn't this be more consistent a call on the lives of believers tenderly loved by Jesus?

When my father suffered aphasia from a stroke, he was physically fine but mentally unable to express or receive certain words. In utter frustration with his inability to communicate, Dad would strike himself on the head and say, "So dumb...so dumb..."  (This from a man who did trig problems for fun and loved to discuss T.S. Eliot with me.)

What broke my heart was only partly Dad's aphasia. More of the heartbreak centered around his self-hatred. He was "beating his body" over his own shortcomings. And, since decades of smoking were almost centainly contributing factors to his stroke, he may well have been blaming himself. I dunno.) But I do know that self hatred of any kind is incompatible with the tenderness God, in Christ, has for us and wants us to have for ourselves.

Again, I don't disrespect my Catholic brothers and sisters. I have grown so much through the ministry and encouragement of priests, monks and RCC theologians. This is just one area that concerns me about the church and one that I hope does not get out of hand. I doubt it is that broadly practised -- I am not even sure all Opus Dei members self-flagellate. I only know that when my Dad beat himself, it made me weep because I loved him so much. I wonder how the Father of Jesus feels when we hurt and hate ourselves, seeing as how He loves us far more than we are capable of loving others placed in our care.

Does that make sense?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

wow, JSJ, that is truly a sad story, my heart goes out to your family...but I don't think this discussion approaches that level in any way.   I don't think we were discussing self-hatred, but rather we were discussing if whipping oneself with a belt or sleeping naked on a floor has any use in controlling the sinful nature or bringing one closer to Christ.

The sackcloth and ashes in the bible were simply an outward representation of what was going on in the heart and was a sign of mourning and despair...sackcloth had NOTHING to do with controlling one's flesh and is therefore out of context in this discussion.

But, most importantly, the bible explicitly prophesied that the Messiah would REMOVE our sackcloth and ashes:

Isaiah 61
The Year of the LORD's Favor
 1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
       because the LORD has anointed me
       to preach good news to the poor.
       He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
       to proclaim freedom for the captives
       and release from darkness for the prisoners,
 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
       and the day of vengeance of our God,
       to comfort all who mourn,
 3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
      to bestow on them a crown of beauty
       instead of ashes,
       the oil of gladness
       instead of mourning,
      and a garment of praise
       instead of a spirit of despair.
       They will be called oaks of righteousness,
       a planting of the LORD
       for the display of his splendor.


here we see the removal of ashes and the removal of the "spirit of despair" (a direct reference to the attitude associated with wearing sackcloth), being replaced with a "garment of praise"

so, Christ came to remove our sackcloth and ashes, thus, sackcloth for Christians is directly refuted....which is why you don't see any example of it after the new covenant was placed into effect...for a Christian to put on sackcloth would truly be useless (false) humility and would contradict what Christ did.

[Lahbas]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

[JSojourner]

JMCFST,

That is perfect.  You got it spot on.  I was probably projecting!

(I do think there are those in every Christian tradition, not just Catholicism, that "beat themselves up" -- if not physically, then mentally and emotionally.  But yeah -- that's an entirely different kettle of fish.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

So, according to the left-footers, I get to skip purgatory based on last year alone. Hmm. Maybe popery isn't so bad after all...

[Joe Republic]

Bodily harm, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

Err..bodily harm? mental suffering as a the result of phsyical pain ? It's not difficult to grasp.

Bodily harm, yes. Pain, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

That an action has costs does not demonstrate that it is a foolish one. You simply aren't making any sense.

What on earth are you talking about?  "Harm in a broad sense"?  What does that even mean?

If you deliberately punched yourself in the face on a daily basis because you mistakenly believed it would lead to some kind of reward, don't you consider that to be foolish?

[12th Doctor]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

Ummm... no.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

Ummm... no.

Hopefully, he was joking.  But on a more serious note, I am NOT saying John Paul II was not saved; rather I am saying beating yourself out of humility and sleeping on the floor in humility, are NOT pictures of Christianity.  Jesus Christ does NOT save people so that they can go throw themselves on a bed of nails; life is going to do that to you enough.  Rather, Jesus coming into one’s life lifts them up off of a bed of nails.

Just give me a second and I can prove this easily:

Acts 8:36 “As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.”

Acts 16:33 “At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.  The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.”

Notice that once the jailer and eunuch experienced Christ, they did NOT go beat themselves, rather they were full of love and joy and started living life as God meant for people to live it...That is what Christianity is about!!!  They did NOT say, “Oh, I am now so full of love and joy that I am going to beat myself out of humility and sleep naked on the floor.”

Where is the bed of nails in the following verses:

Gal 5:22 ” But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.”

John 10:10 “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”

Isa 61:1
   The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
       because the LORD has anointed me
       to preach good news to the poor.
       He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
       to proclaim freedom for the captives
       and release from darkness for the prisoners, [a]
 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
       and the day of vengeance of our God,
       to comfort all who mourn,
 3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
       to bestow on them a crown of beauty
       instead of ashes,
       the oil of gladness
       instead of mourning,
       and a garment of praise
       instead of a spirit of despair.
       They will be called oaks of righteousness,
       a planting of the LORD
       for the display of his splendor.
  
Sorry, though it may be obvious to everyone on this forum that I am a sinner and I haven’t been a good example, when I met Christ I was full of joy and did NOT feel the desire to go and beat myself, rather I felt the need to forgive myself.  Nor have I ever met anyone being in Christ’s presence that went home and tortured themselves; to the contrary, torturing yourself is a product of manmade religion and not the product of the Spirit, and can only be done by losing connection with Christ, which is exactly why Paul wrote:

Col 2 “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy...
Do not let anyone who delights in voluntary humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.”

The idea that living for God means throwing yourself on a bed of nails in humility is exactly what Paul was preaching against in this letter.  The only time I throw myself on a bed of nails is by sinning and the only thing to picks me up off that bed of nails is the forgiveness that I find in returning to Christ.  And it’s His presence, not self-flagellation, that produces a joy so intense that it overshadows the desire to sin.

The idea that you and J.J. have about merging Christianity with the wearing of sackcloth is very disturbing to me.  Read the verses pertaining to sackcloth...Sackcloth was a way of displaying mourning when disaster struck (or a way to warn against imminent disaster, which is why John the Baptist wore it as he warned people to repent).   It has nothing to do with living life after being found by God, it has nothing to do with the joy and peace found in Jesus Christ.  

[Free Palestine]

Kinky.

[J. J.]

First of all, Jmfcst, I did cite the Psalm regarding a hair shirt.  So the origins of mortification date to the OT.

Pain itself, and denials of the flesh, can be a sanctifying act (I hope I'm using the term correctly).  Of all people, I'm surprised you don't see that.

Second, I don't see Chris or myself, or John Paul II as merging it into Christianity or claiming it is necessary.  I would claim some Christians might find it useful in building their relationship with God.

In looking at the original KJV, the verse is "But I keep under my body, and bring it into submission."  This certainly sounds like a manner of bringing it into submission.

[Lahbas]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

Ummm... no.

Hopefully, he was joking.  

No, that is what I have been taught. Of course, it has never been the kind of pain that is self-inflicted or extreme as cited here. It is more alone the lines of mental discomfort, frustration, or pain from simple injuries. Basically, your suffering is offered in the place of those in Purgatory, so that they may enter the Kingdom of Heaven "earlier" (however time is percieved there). However, as cited here, my views are apparently wrong.



210. What is purgatory?

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?

Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.

[A18]

Bodily harm, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

Err..bodily harm? mental suffering as a the result of phsyical pain ? It's not difficult to grasp.

Bodily harm, yes. Pain, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

That an action has costs does not demonstrate that it is a foolish one. You simply aren't making any sense.

What on earth are you talking about?  "Harm in a broad sense"?  What does that even mean?

Is there harm on net, counting all gains as well as all injuries? Buying a car "harms" a person in that he has to fork over a lot of money; but from a broader standpoint, it can be beneficial. Dieting "harms" a person in that he has to give up some of the pleasure of eating; but from a broader standpoint, it can be beneficial.

If "harm" is understood in the narrow sense, then the fact that an action involves "harm" does not prove it to be a foolish one. And if "harm" is understood in the broad sense, then the statement that this was "self-harm" begs the entire question.