Pope John Paul II self-flagellated to get closer to Jesus

[Sewer]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/27/pope.flagellate/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

[Joe Republic]

And this man was the guiding light for a billion people?  Disturbing.

[Sensei]

I really don't think it's a big deal. The reasons for doing it were perfectly sound from his perspective. Not that it makes any real sense.

[Joe Republic]

I really don't think it's a big deal. The reasons for doing it were perfectly sound from his perspective. Not that it makes any real sense.

The same can be said for anybody who self-mutilates, of course.  And just like them, they require psychiatric help, not reverence.  That serves only to encourage others to do the same.

[Bo]

I'm not sure if this story is 100% accurate.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just like the villain in The Da Vinci Code.

LOL Catholics

[useful idiot]

This is not abnormal amongst especially devout Catholics, nor should it really be news.

[Хahar 🤔]

...so?

[J. J.]

Actually a not uncommon religious devotion that has been practice for nearly 2,000 years in Christianity and with roots in Judaism.   It is also practiced in Islam.

[afleitch]

Actually a not uncommon religious devotion that has been practice for nearly 2,000 years in Christianity and with roots in Judaism.   It is also practiced in Islam.

That aside it's not something that anyone should be driven to do. But thats the thing with organised religion; it 'gets away' with practices that if they were not done for religious purposes would see some (usually psychiatric) intervention; self harming, speaking gibberish and thrashing on the floor, voices in your head telling you what to do and how to think, genital mutilation and so on. Even standing on a street shouting at people. If any of these took place without a religious 'excuse' you'd be hauled away...

[dead0man]

I'm pretty sure I've seen people shouting things in the street unrelated to religion and they were not hauled away.  I see non religious "self harming" all the time.  It's called a tattoo parlor.  Lots of people have voices in their head telling them what to do, you can call it "inner voice" or "internal monologue".  I'd guess most dudes with a Prince Albert are non religious.  I'll give you gibberish/tongues though (although some drugs can get you pretty close).

[afleitch]

I'm pretty sure I've seen people shouting things in the street unrelated to religion and they were not hauled away.  I see non religious "self harming" all the time.  It's called a tattoo parlor.  Lots of people have voices in their head telling them what to do, you can call it "inner voice" or "internal monologue".  I'd guess most dudes with a Prince Albert are non religious.  I'll give you gibberish/tongues though (although some drugs can get you pretty close).

I pretty much implied everyone was capabeble of doing the above; I was saying that there is little 'intervention' if you do it and say 'ah but my God says...' with the exception of things that are blatantly OTT like violence or crime.

You can get aways with a lot of things if you wrap it up as religiously inspired. Ask the $cientologists.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This is not abnormal amongst especially devout Catholics, nor should it really be news.

For me self-floggeting is abnormal in general.

[dead0man]

I'm pretty sure I've seen people shouting things in the street unrelated to religion and they were not hauled away.  I see non religious "self harming" all the time.  It's called a tattoo parlor.  Lots of people have voices in their head telling them what to do, you can call it "inner voice" or "internal monologue".  I'd guess most dudes with a Prince Albert are non religious.  I'll give you gibberish/tongues though (although some drugs can get you pretty close).

I pretty much implied everyone was capabeble of doing the above; I was saying that there is little 'intervention' if you do it and say 'ah but my God says...' with the exception of things that are blatantly OTT like violence or crime.

I understand what you're saying.  You're saying the religious do crazy things and nobody gives them crap for it because they hide behind the religion excuse.  I'm saying non-religious do very similar things and nobody gives them crap either.

[A18]

That aside it's not something that anyone should be driven to do.

Oh? And why is that?

[Joe Republic]

That aside it's not something that anyone should be driven to do.

Oh? And why is that?

Because it's self-harm...?

[A18]

Bodily harm, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

[afleitch]

Bodily harm, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

Err..bodily harm? mental suffering as a the result of phsyical pain ? It's not difficult to grasp.

[JSojourner]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

No.  And certainly not for the purpose of "getting closer to Jesus", as some Opus Dei practitioners claim. The point is, theologically, that Jesus took the stripes that were meant for us and we cannot do anything (including suffer) to merit God's favor.  He has already done that for us.  One of my Opus Dei acquaintances wears a belt with small, jagged edges on it so he can be uncomfortable and even cut throughout the day.  He says it reminds him of the pain Christ endured for him...and, while I respect his sincerity and his desire to honor Jesus...I see no Scriptural support for his activity and, in fact, it could lead SOME practitioners to errantly believe they are paying for their sins at least in part. If so, Jesus' final declaration on the cross that, "It is finished" was in error.

St. Paul did say, "I buffet my body"...but then we get into the whole problem of taking everything in Scripture literally.  Contextually, it seems clear to me that Paul was talking about controlling his urges, denying his selfish desires in favor of service to others and obedience to Christ. I don't see anything there indicating he was beating himself.

I do draw a distinction between fasting and other forms of self denial and actual self-flagellation.  And maybe I am putting too fine a point on it. But even fasting is supposed to be done with a view toward common sense and self preservation (not fasting if you are physically or medically unable, etc.) Fasting is supposed to cause one to recognize the lack of something and, in lacking, to realize the sufficiency of Christ. I don't see how whipping yourself does that in anyway.

There is so much I respected about the previous pontiff and I mean no disrespect to my brother and sister Roman Catholics. Most of the Catholics I know are far better Christians than me and very, very few are members of Opus Dei...which strikes me as a bizarre, almost cult-like movement. But again...I speak from a certainly level of ignorance and will defer to Chris or others with a greater experience with the RCC.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

[A18]

Bodily harm, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

Err..bodily harm? mental suffering as a the result of phsyical pain ? It's not difficult to grasp.

Bodily harm, yes. Pain, yes. But harm in the broad sense?

That an action has costs does not demonstrate that it is a foolish one. You simply aren't making any sense.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A little strange, but it seems to fit in quite well with what we know about his worldview and so isn't a surprise. Anyway, the reactions here are quite interesting.

[12th Doctor]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

Okay, well you me it seems obvious that what Paul is condemning there is false humility, but okay.

[k-onmmunist]

Weirdo.