Amendment to Article 2 of the OSPR (Passed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsored by: Senator Fritz



Edit: I abreviated the title in the subject field.

[MaxQue]

No, I voiced and will continue to voice my support for a flexible system.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This still seems like an unnecessary change. I see no reason for switching the two roles when historically the Veep has been less active then the PPT. 

[Kaine for Senate '18]

As an outsider, I voice my opposition to this Amendment.

[MasterJedi]

As an outsider, I voice my opposition to this Amendment.

Ditto as a previous 6 term PPT that knows how things work in the Senate.

[Fritz]

If you want a "flexible system", Max, then you should be all in favor of this.    Flexible is exactly what it is.

Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution has this to say on the matter:

3.The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.
4.The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President.

There is no other mention of the President of the Senate, or the President Pro Tempore, in the Constitution that I have found (if there is one that I missed, I'm sure someone will tell me    ).  Their powers and duties are defined by the document I am attempting to amend.  What we really have, under the current rules, is a Vice-President who acts as President of the Senate only in the absence of the PPT.  I think the current rules are unconstitutional.  The Constitution states the PPT "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President."  But the rules have this process in reverse!  What is a President of the Senate?  Shouldn't a President actually preside over the body he is President of?  Under the current rules, the President of the Senate is really the Vice-President of the Senate, and the PPT is the real President.  This seems contrary to the language in the Constitution.

This proposal does allow for flexibility! At any time, the VP may confer upon the PPT the powers and duties of the Presiding Officer.  (He can also take them back.)  It is up to the VP to decide whether he wants to actively preside, or let the PPT do it.

         

[afleitch]

I'm not seeing why this change would be necessary.

[Fritz]

1.  This proposal follows the Constitution, the current system does not.

2.  This proposal is more flexible than the current system.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Maybe so but the Consitution is fairly vague on the matter and open to interpretation. One thing I do note is that this originally started as way to reduce mid senate transitions and the confusion caused by them. However this current "flexible" proposal means that it will require such a transition in Senate leadership to occur more frequently. Thus unnecessarily slowing the senate down and making senate activity even harder to achieve.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

At the very least, implementation should be delayed to the next senate and it should be amended so that the Veep has to choose at the beginning of each Senate and can't change his mind except when he gave authority over to the PPT and then the PPT went innactive.

[Hans-im-Glück]

I don't see that this proposal would bring a some improvement, but it don't make it worse. We had one post less and the vice president would be upgraded.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't see that this proposal would bring a some improvement, but it don't make it worse. We had one post less and the vice president would be upgraded.

What you mean by one post less?

[Fritz]

I've been wondering ever since I joined the Senate, what is OSPR?  Isn't this CSRRP?

Anyways, with this in effect, BK could have jumped in quicker when MJ went inactive last fall.  Also he could have just retained the leadership (it was not long until the end of the session) rather than scrambling to get a PPT elected.  The same is true for when Franzl was promoted to SoFA.

[Hans-im-Glück]

What you mean by one post less?

Forget it. Today I write before I begin to think , but I'm still against it.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I still see this amendment as a waste of time and unnecessary. The only change, I think, that could change my mind will be withdrawing it entirely. I would support that!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What you mean by one post less?

Forget it. Today I write before I begin to think , but I'm still against it.

Perfectly alright, that is my major accomplishment over my past two terms, by the way.

[Badger]

If you want a "flexible system", Max, then you should be all in favor of this.    Flexible is exactly what it is.

Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution has this to say on the matter:

3.The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.
4.The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President.

There is no other mention of the President of the Senate, or the President Pro Tempore, in the Constitution that I have found (if there is one that I missed, I'm sure someone will tell me    ).  Their powers and duties are defined by the document I am attempting to amend.  What we really have, under the current rules, is a Vice-President who acts as President of the Senate only in the absence of the PPT.  I think the current rules are unconstitutional. The Constitution states the PPT "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President."   But the rules have this process in reverse!  What is a President of the Senate?  Shouldn't a President actually preside over the body he is President of?  Under the current rules, the President of the Senate is really the Vice-President of the Senate, and the PPT is the real President.  This seems contrary to the language in the Constitution.

This proposal does allow for flexibility! At any time, the VP may confer upon the PPT the powers and duties of the Presiding Officer.  (He can also take them back.)  It is up to the VP to decide whether he wants to actively preside, or let the PPT do it.

        

Holy balls, I didn't realize that! Senators, this is a crucial point Fritz has noted here. Can anyone comment on why the VP shouldn't be the default head of the Senate to be replaced by the PPT during absences? I really see nothing vague in this constitutional language at all.

[Hash]

I also pick up on Fritz' recognition of the language of the Constitution. "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President." is rather unambiguous. Like it or not, it's the current Constitution!

As to the actual legislation, why couldn't the Dean take over the role given to the PPT by this legislation?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I also pick up on Fritz' recognition of the language of the Constitution. "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President." is rather unambiguous. Like it or not, it's the current Constitution!

As to the actual legislation, why couldn't the Dean take over the role given to the PPT by this legislation?

I think we should maintain the separate elected position. If the Dean wants to run for it, he can and if ge doesn't want it, he wouldn't have to do it. Think of Afleitch is situaiton. Suppose the Veep goes innactive and Afleitch doesn't have time to do the job because of his wedding, or take Fritz, lets say he is the Dean and he declined to run because of lack of time and the Veep goes innactive, what happens. The duties of runing the Senate or even the step in should be the most active Senator, not the most senior.

[Hash]

I also pick up on Fritz' recognition of the language of the Constitution. "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President." is rather unambiguous. Like it or not, it's the current Constitution!

As to the actual legislation, why couldn't the Dean take over the role given to the PPT by this legislation?

I think we should maintain the separate elected position. If the Dean wants to run for it, he can and if ge doesn't want it, he wouldn't have to do it. Think of Afleitch is situaiton. Suppose the Veep goes innactive and Afleitch doesn't have time to do the job because of his wedding, or take Fritz, lets say he is the Dean and he declined to run because of lack of time and the Veep goes innactive, what happens. The duties of runing the Senate or even the step in should be the most active Senator, not the most senior.

Fair point. I'm still a little shaky on having a PPT who is relatively sidelined, though...

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I also pick up on Fritz' recognition of the language of the Constitution. "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President." is rather unambiguous. Like it or not, it's the current Constitution!

As to the actual legislation, why couldn't the Dean take over the role given to the PPT by this legislation?

I think we should maintain the separate elected position. If the Dean wants to run for it, he can and if ge doesn't want it, he wouldn't have to do it. Think of Afleitch is situaiton. Suppose the Veep goes innactive and Afleitch doesn't have time to do the job because of his wedding, or take Fritz, lets say he is the Dean and he declined to run because of lack of time and the Veep goes innactive, what happens. The duties of runing the Senate or even the step in should be the most active Senator, not the most senior.

Fair point. I'm still a little shaky on having a PPT who is relatively sidelined, though...

Well the stated goal was orginally greater flexibility. This constitutional issue came up and kind of forced hands a little bit.

I also pick up on Fritz' recognition of the language of the Constitution. "shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President." is rather unambiguous. Like it or not, it's the current Constitution!
As to the actual legislation, why couldn't the Dean take over the role given to the PPT by this legislation?

Not a problem though. If this current legislation fails we can always amend the constitution. Lets not make it sound like anyone legally binded to vote for this over this discovery.

[Fritz]

Is there any citizen out there who was involved in the actual drafting of these rules- that which is being referred to as OSPR- who could comment on why the Constitution is so blatantly contradicted?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is there any citizen out there who was involved in the actual drafting of these rules- that which is being referred to as OSPR- who could comment on why the Constitution is so blatantly contradicted?

I two am interested in this question. Peter, MJ, anyone who may know something about this specific question please share it with us.


I am going to hold off on a final vote for a day or two longer and see if we can get an answer, if there are no objections of course.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We have waited long enough. Before I will start this vote, I will remind Senators that if you oppose this bill, don't feel forced to vote for this because of an issue with the Consitution conflicting with the OSPR. We need to conduct some more extensive research and find out just why this was ignored or allowed in the first place. I encourage Senators to vote nay on this and give us the time we need. There is no pressing emergency or innactivity on the part of the PPT, hell I am the most active Senator here appearently. So I see know reason not to do what we need to do to make sure we adopt the right changes.



A vote is now open. Senators please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.



NAY

[Badger]

AYE.