Another voter registration fraud story

[CARLHAYDEN]

Here's another voter registration fraud story:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041018/BREAKINGNEWS/%20%2041018011

[J. J.]

And I wonder why jfern isn't talking about OH seceding from the Union.  :-O

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

[Alcon]

Saw that earlier. Stupidest idea in history. Not a major news story.

[J. J.]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

Thousands of Democratic votes stolen isn't a story?
You have got to be sh**tting me.
If Kerry loses Nevada by 300 votes, expect civil war.

[J-Mann]

Well...even if the fake names had been registered, this scheme didn't seem well organized enough to translate those registrations into actual votes.  It could have been, but anything involving trading crack for signatures doesn't seem to me like it has a real great chance of succeeding.

This IS a story, but not a very big one compared to the embarassing allegations made against my fellow Republicans in Nevada.  Regardless of what their legal obligations were, the ones responsible for shredding those forms should be ashamed.

[J. J.]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

Thousands of Democratic votes stolen isn't a story?
You have got to be expletive deleted for taste me.
If Kerry loses Nevada by 300 votes, expect civil war.

Once again, you've gotten it wrong.  No, absolutely none, votes were "stolen," from any party.  No votes were cast.

The private group, a non-government affiliated private group, has no obligation to turn in any voter registration form.  The forms can, and are suppose to be, submitted by mail, by the person registering.  

I am not a postal employee, nor an employee (currently) of any government.  If you hand me a piece of mail, I have no legal obligation to mail it.  

Since "motor voter," all government offices have these forms and all registrations can be done by mail.  This private group has no obligation to register anyone; governmental bodies certainly do, but this group was not connected with a government.  The people were not deprived of their right to register; they did not follow the recommended procedure in registering and took the risk that they would not be registered.  They apparently did not even check with the registration bureau to see if there forms had been submitted.

You seem to think a political party can contract a group, pay its expenses and be forced to aid and support another party.  In Stalinist states that's what happened.   Certainly in the United States, the Democratic Party cannot, and should not, be forced to register Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, or other parties.  Those parties certainly should not be compelled to register Democrats!

I happen to be a Republican.  Should I expect the Democratic Party to provide me with a registration form, mail it in for me, provide an absentee ballot application, or drive me to the polls on election day?  Of course not!

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

Thousands of Democratic votes stolen isn't a story?
You have got to be expletive deleted for taste me.
If Kerry loses Nevada by 300 votes, expect civil war.

Once again, you've gotten it wrong.  No, absolutely none, votes were "stolen," from any party.  No votes were cast.

The private group, a non-government affiliated private group, has no obligation to turn in any voter registration form.  The forms can, and are suppose to be, submitted by mail, by the person registering. 

I am not a postal employee, nor an employee (currently) of any government.  If you hand me a piece of mail, I have no legal obligation to mail it. 

Since "motor voter," all government offices have these forms and all registrations can be done by mail.  This private group has no obligation to register anyone; governmental bodies certainly do, but this group was not connected with a government.  The people were not deprived of their right to register; they did not follow the recommended procedure in registering and took the risk that they would not be registered.  They apparently did not even check with the registration bureau to see if there forms had been submitted.

You seem to think a political party can contract a group, pay its expenses and be forced to aid and support another party.  In Stalinist states that's what happened.   Certainly in the United States, the Democratic Party cannot, and should not, be forced to register Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, or other parties.  Those parties certainly should not be compelled to register Democrats!

I happen to be a Republican.  Should I expect the Democratic Party to provide me with a registration form, mail it in for me, provide an absentee ballot application, or drive me to the polls on election day?  Of course not!

1. Destroying only Democratic voter registrations costs Kerry votes
2. It is illegal to take completed voter registrations and not fill them in. In fact, it is a felony in Nevada
3. In many (maybe all states) you have to be ceritifed to be able to collect completed voter registrations
4. The organization was fraudlantly using the name of a non-partisan organization
5. In a different case in Nevada, the Nevada Republican party, hardly a private organization, told its employees to dispose of Democratic registrations.

[CARLHAYDEN]

What everyone seems to be missing is several key elements of the ongoing story of fraudulent voter registrations.

First, why the fraudulent registrations?  While it is true that some of them are pathetically incompetent, why does the left fund them?  To me the answer is that in many areas, registrations are NOT checked, and under existing law, people may vote many times under fraudulent registrations.

Second, while the left has found one example of a Republican group engaging in unethical (and possibly illegal) registration tactics, there are numerous examples of the left engaging in fraudulent registrations this year around the nation.  None of these should be condoned!

Third, I hope someone after the election will take the time to count up the amount of money spent by foreign born speculators to influence the American election this year via fraudulent voter registration and the Colorado electoral vote grab scheme.

[Silent Hunter]

Both sides have used voter fraud in the past.

This is an argument for the British system where they post you the forms and you send them back.

[J. J.]

1. Destroying only Democratic voter registrations costs Kerry votes
2. It is illegal to take completed voter registrations and not fill them in. In fact, it is a felony in Nevada
3. In many (maybe all states) you have to be ceritifed to be able to collect completed voter registrations
4. The organization was fraudlantly using the name of a non-partisan organization
5. In a different case in Nevada, the Nevada Republican party, hardly a private organization, told its employees to dispose of Democratic registrations.

I was actually hoping that you would make these claims.

1.  No, the individuals were not prevented from registering throught the numerous outlets, DMV offices, welfare offices, Social Security offices, municipal and county registrars, as provided for by law.

2.  Wrong again!  NV law does provide that:

"NRS 293.5045  Voter registration agencies: Prohibited acts; penalty.

      1.  A person who works in a voter registration agency shall not(emphasis added):

      (a) Seek to influence an applicant’s political preference or party registration;

      (b) Display a political preference or party allegiance in a place where it can be seen by an applicant;

      (c) Make any statement or take any action to discourage an applicant from registering to vote; or

      (d) Make any statement or take any action which would lead the applicant to believe that a decision to register to vote has any effect on the availability of any services or benefits provided by the State or Federal Government."

I will add that the statute also provides for local jurisdictions to appoint registrars for the locality.

The law also defines "Voter Registration Agency":

"NRS 293.504  Voter registration agencies: Creation; duties; duty of Secretary of State to cooperate with Secretary of Defense to allow persons to register at military recruitment offices.
      1.  The following offices shall serve as voter registration agencies:

      (a) Such offices that provide public assistance as are designated by the Secretary of State;

      (b) Each office that receives money from the State of Nevada to provide services to persons in this state who are disabled;

      (c) The offices of the Department of Motor Vehicles;

      (d) The offices of the city and county clerks; and

      (e) Such other offices as the Secretary of State deems appropriate"

This group is not an agency.  

3.  There is nothing in this law that I saw that says that only certified agencies can collect completed voter registration forms.   I know that in my state, there has not been any such requirement.  

4. As for this, no one has produced any evidence of that.  The news reports do not claim it, in fact the inference is just the opposite, that the employees of this firm were instructed to register only Republicans.

5.  Only in a Stalinist or  Fascist state would a party be considered a part of the government.  No party is in the United States.  A political party is not part of a government; it is a separate entity.

What we have here is a private group, a contractor, being hired by a private group, a party, to register people within that party.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Then we have this contractor refusing to register people in another party, which the have no legal obligation to do.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that, either.

We have a group of people, otherwise eligible, who were not registered by this group.  Have they been blocked from registering by anybody?  No.  Did the private contractor prevent them from registering?  No.  Did they have access to the means to register?  Yes.

Now, if I hand you, assuming that you are not acting as an official, a form, any form of mine, do you have any legal requirement to file it?  No.

[J. J.]

Both sides have used voter fraud in the past.

This is an argument for the British system where they post you the forms and you send them back.

Actually in PA, there is a self addressed card on the registration form that the election board will detach and mail back once the receive the form.  It only serves as proof that the received the form, not that you are registered.

I don't know if NV has a similar system.

PA's voter rolls are also public.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

1. Destroying only Democratic voter registrations costs Kerry votes
2. It is illegal to take completed voter registrations and not fill them in. In fact, it is a felony in Nevada
3. In many (maybe all states) you have to be ceritifed to be able to collect completed voter registrations
4. The organization was fraudlantly using the name of a non-partisan organization
5. In a different case in Nevada, the Nevada Republican party, hardly a private organization, told its employees to dispose of Democratic registrations.

I was actually hoping that you would make these claims.

1.  No, the individuals were not prevented from registering throught the numerous outlets, DMV offices, welfare offices, Social Security offices, municipal and county registrars, as provided for by law.

2.  Wrong again!  NV law does provide that:

"NRS 293.5045  Voter registration agencies: Prohibited acts; penalty.

      1.  A person who works in a voter registration agency shall not(emphasis added):

      (a) Seek to influence an applicant’s political preference or party registration;

      (b) Display a political preference or party allegiance in a place where it can be seen by an applicant;

      (c) Make any statement or take any action to discourage an applicant from registering to vote; or

      (d) Make any statement or take any action which would lead the applicant to believe that a decision to register to vote has any effect on the availability of any services or benefits provided by the State or Federal Government."

I will add that the statute also provides for local jurisdictions to appoint registrars for the locality.

The law also defines "Voter Registration Agency":

"NRS 293.504  Voter registration agencies: Creation; duties; duty of Secretary of State to cooperate with Secretary of Defense to allow persons to register at military recruitment offices.
      1.  The following offices shall serve as voter registration agencies:

      (a) Such offices that provide public assistance as are designated by the Secretary of State;

      (b) Each office that receives money from the State of Nevada to provide services to persons in this state who are disabled;

      (c) The offices of the Department of Motor Vehicles;

      (d) The offices of the city and county clerks; and

      (e) Such other offices as the Secretary of State deems appropriate"

This group is not an agency. 

3.  There is nothing in this law that I saw that says that only certified agencies can collect completed voter registration forms.   I know that in my state, there has not been any such requirement. 

4. As for this, no one has produced any evidence of that.  The news reports do not claim it, in fact the inference is just the opposite, that the employees of this firm were instructed to register only Republicans.

5.  Only in a Stalinist or  Fascist state would a party be considered a part of the government.  No party is in the United States.  A political party is not part of a government; it is a separate entity.

What we have here is a private group, a contractor, being hired by a private group, a party, to register people within that party.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Then we have this contractor refusing to register people in another party, which the have no legal obligation to do.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that, either.

We have a group of people, otherwise eligible, who were not registered by this group.  Have they been blocked from registering by anybody?  No.  Did the private contractor prevent them from registering?  No.  Did they have access to the means to register?  Yes.

Now, if I hand you, assuming that you are not acting as an official, a form, any form of mine, do you have any legal requirement to file it?  No.

1. They registered with what they thought was a non-partisan organization. Regardless of the organization, they were required to submit their ballots. Do you register to vote 5000 times? You'd probably whine if someone did that. Well, if they registered only once, they'd be elimated by dirty GOP tricks here. You're really dense on this point.


2.
"   (c) Make any statement or take any action to discourage an applicant from registering to vote;"
Yes, destroying registrations falls in that catagory, dumbass.

3. Are you sure? Have you registered people? Maybe they need rules to keep election stealers like you from destroying registrations - not that it works - see Nevada

4. Three seperate cases all with employees coming forward. In one case they have shredded ballots and found people who thought they'd registered.  How is that not enough proof you Republicans who make sh**t up all the time?

5. The Nevada GOP is definitely a regulated organization. If they were private, then you could give $5 million to them and no one would care.

[J. J.]

1. They registered with what they thought was a non-partisan organization. Regardless of the organization, they were required to submit their ballots. Do you register to vote 5000 times? You'd probably whine if someone did that. Well, if they registered only once, they'd be elimated by dirty GOP tricks here. You're really dense on this point.


2.
"   (c) Make any statement or take any action to discourage an applicant from registering to vote;"
Yes, destroying registrations falls in that catagory, jfers tasteless expletive deleted again .

3. Are you sure? Have you registered people? Maybe they need rules to keep election stealers like you from destroying registrations - not that it works - see Nevada

4. Three seperate cases all with employees coming forward. In one case they have shredded ballots and found people who thought they'd registered.  How is that not enough proof you Republicans who make jfern's crass expletive reveiling is lack of vocabulary is again deleted is  up all the time?

5. The Nevada GOP is definitely a regulated organization. If they were private, then you could give $5 million to them and no one would care.

1.  No, I wouldn't whine; I'd consider myself outmatched.  For example, the PA Dem party it working to keep Nader off the ballot, which will probably hurt Bush.  You have not heard me whining about how "unfair" they are.

No one has yet said that they claimed to be non-partisan.  You only register once, if you do it the proper way.  BTW, NV does send out notice to the voter that their registration is received, within ten days of receipt.

2.  Once again, that applies to a "voter registration agency" and this group isn't.  You've screwed it up again.  Ah, that's actually why added the emphasis in that post.

3.  I've registered several hundred people, both as a partisan and as a public employee.  There are different standards between the two.  No you do not a special certification for either.  You can even download the forms from the Internet.

We'd only get regulations like you are suggesting if we had a Stalinist government.  Does John Kerry support such extreme measures?

Of course, I could not find anything in the statute that required certification.  It seems to made up out of whole cloth.

4.  Proof of activity, perhaps.  Proof of illegal activity, no.  The action violated no law.   It's a bit like driving 30 MPH in a 35 MHP zone.  There might be proof you did it, but it doesn't get you a speeding ticket.

5.  Ah, jfern, the medical profession is regulated by government, taxi cabs are, the power company, the legal profession, unions (including my old one, the SEIU, believe it or not).  None of these are part of a government (though the SEIU would like to be).  I'm regulated by the government; I cannot go to the bank take out $3,000 and send it to the Bush campaign.  So are you, since you could take $3,000 and send it to Kerry.  Does that make either one of us part of the government.

Basically, the "other side" did something you don't like.  They got the better of your side in one small tactical victory.  Was it a hardball tactic?  Absolutely.  Illegal, no, but hardball, yes.

You, in an absolutely hackish manner, proclaim it a "felony," with "votes stolen," and want a "civil war" fought over it, if NV is close.  You don't complain when someone from your side does it.  That is just pathetic.

[dougrhess]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

The forgeries should be prosecuted, but it is not as big a threat as fraudulently letting somebody think you registered them when you then shred them. The fake registrations were done by people who wanted to get paid for them, not because anybody was trying to vote them. I'd be interested in cases of people voting fake names, etc. in recent elections. Anybody know of any?

[dougrhess]

Here's another voter registration fraud story:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041018/BREAKINGNEWS/%20%2041018011

That link wasn't working for me. Is this the same story:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343/-1/NEWS

[ATFFL]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

The forgeries should be prosecuted, but it is not as big a threat as fraudulently letting somebody think you registered them when you then shred them. The fake registrations were done by people who wanted to get paid for them, not because anybody was trying to vote them. I'd be interested in cases of people voting fake names, etc. in recent elections. Anybody know of any?

Actually a forged registration is worse.  With a forged registration the person who is registered does not know they are.  If they donor know they are registered to vote they will not go and vote.

The only reason to register someone without their knowledge is to send someone else to vote using the registrant's name.

[dougrhess]

What does this have to do with anything?
100 names easily found to be fake.
No shredded legitimate voter registrations.
This isn't a story.

Well, I find it interesting that when a GOP hired group doesn't register Dems, and refuses to submit forms, you threaten "civil war."  When a non-partisan group submits Dem resigistrations illegally, forged in fact, you say, "This isn't a story."

I would not consider either a real story either.

The forgeries should be prosecuted, but it is not as big a threat as fraudulently letting somebody think you registered them when you then shred them. The fake registrations were done by people who wanted to get paid for them, not because anybody was trying to vote them. I'd be interested in cases of people voting fake names, etc. in recent elections. Anybody know of any?

Actually a forged registration is worse.  With a forged registration the person who is registered does not know they are.  If they donor know they are registered to vote they will not go and vote.

The only reason to register someone without their knowledge is to send someone else to vote using the registrant's name.

I should have said fakes, not forged. I agree a forgery is a real problem. What I meant was that people making fake ones aren't likely doing it to vote them, but to get paid for handing them in.