NY-23 Special (Atlas Poll)

[Rob]

Sorry if we've had this thread before; but with all the attention this race has been getting, I wanted to find out what the Atlas consensus is.

I'd vote for Owens.

[xavier110]

Scozzafava.

If it looked like she had no hope come election day, I would go with Owens (obviously).

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

The Atlas moderate hero of the hour, Dede Scozzafava (Normal)

[War on Want]

I'd probably vote for Owens.

[Lunar]

Owens

Scozzafava seems like a principled legislator and all, but she's a trainwreck

[Nhoj]

Dede Scozzafava, shes probably closest to me ideology wise.

[CatoMinor]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

So let me get this straight...

You call Dede "ACORN-backed" - a claim which has been erroneously made because she was endorsed in the past by the Working Families Party, which is somehow connected with ACORN, as a state legislator and because she is an acquaintance of the WFP vice-chair.

However, you then go on to say that "Owens seems alright", even though he is endorsed IN THIS ELECTION by that very same Working Families Party?   AND - the candidacy of Doug Hoffman is helping to ensure the election of the Working Families Party candidate Bill Owens.

To sum it up:
I'm supporting the candidate who was backed by the WFP while at the same time being one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly.

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

[Lunar]

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

I think you're giving him a little too much credit.

[CatoMinor]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

So let me get this straight...

You call Dede "ACORN-backed" - a claim which has been erroneously made because she was endorsed in the past by the Working Families Party, which is somehow connected with ACORN, as a state legislator and because she is an acquaintance of the WFP vice-chair.

However, you then go on to say that "Owens seems alright", even though he is endorsed IN THIS ELECTION by that very same Working Families Party?   AND - the candidacy of Doug Hoffman is helping to ensure the election of the Working Families Party candidate Bill Owens.

To sum it up:
I'm supporting the candidate who was backed by the WFP while at the same time being one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly.

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

I think Owens is alright because he sounds fiscaly responsible, I wouldent support him however because of a few of his other posistions.
even if a vote for Hoffman would help Owens chances, a conservative voting for Scozzafava simply because she is a republican amounts to throwing away your vote. mabey the more liberal Republicans should think of this as a good thing, instead the moderates and liberals being pushed out of the party its the conservatives that bolted in this case.
I personaly have no problem with the moderate wing of the GOP or even their being liberalsin it historicly its been a centrist party however this doesent mean that Conservatives should only have a choice between a Liberal and a moderate, hoffman is simply being "option C"

[Joe Republic]

I'd be amused to see an alternative scenario in which Hoffman is running on the GOP/Conservative line, and Scozzafava as the third party candidate with only the Independence party, simply to see htmldon's spin in support of Hoffman.

[Eraserhead]

I'd probably hold my nose and vote for Owens at this point.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

So let me get this straight...

You call Dede "ACORN-backed" - a claim which has been erroneously made because she was endorsed in the past by the Working Families Party, which is somehow connected with ACORN, as a state legislator and because she is an acquaintance of the WFP vice-chair.

However, you then go on to say that "Owens seems alright", even though he is endorsed IN THIS ELECTION by that very same Working Families Party?  AND - the candidacy of Doug Hoffman is helping to ensure the election of the Working Families Party candidate Bill Owens.

To sum it up:
I'm supporting the candidate who was backed by the WFP while at the same time being one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly.

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

"one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly"?!?

Don,
Instead of making absurd allegations, let’s look at the record. At http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=4433 you will see that Assemblywoman Diedre Scozzafava has a conservative rating of 15 (that’s out of 100).
Here is a (partial) listing or Republican members of the Assembly with higher ratings from Conservatives:
Fitzpatrick, Michael (7)          95
Amedore, George (105)        75
Lopez, Peter (127)                75
Kolb, Brian (129)                   75
Reilich, Bill (134)                    75
O’Mara, Thomas (137)           75
Hawley, Stephen (139)          75
Finch, Gary (123)                   70
Errigo, Joseph (130)              70
Quinn, Jack (146)                   70
Burling, Daniel (147)             70
Bacalles, James (134)            65
Hayes, James (148)               65
Giglio, Joe (149)                     65
Boyle, Philip (                      60
Tobacco, Louis (62)                60
Rabbitt, Ann (97)                    60
Butler, March (117)                60  
Oaks, Robert (128)                60

Oh, and here’s a complete list of other Assembly Republicans with a score as low or lower than Scozzafava’s:

None

But, would you like of list of Assembly Democrats with Conservative scores higher than Scozzafava’s?

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

So let me get this straight...

You call Dede "ACORN-backed" - a claim which has been erroneously made because she was endorsed in the past by the Working Families Party, which is somehow connected with ACORN, as a state legislator and because she is an acquaintance of the WFP vice-chair.

However, you then go on to say that "Owens seems alright", even though he is endorsed IN THIS ELECTION by that very same Working Families Party?  AND - the candidacy of Doug Hoffman is helping to ensure the election of the Working Families Party candidate Bill Owens.

To sum it up:
I'm supporting the candidate who was backed by the WFP while at the same time being one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly.

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

"one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly"?!?

Don,
Instead of making absurd allegations, let’s look at the record. At http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=4433 you will see that Assemblywoman Diedre Scozzafava has a conservative rating of 15 (that’s out of 100).
Here is a (partial) listing or Republican members of the Assembly with higher ratings from Conservatives:
Fitzpatrick, Michael (7)          95
Amedore, George (105)        75
Lopez, Peter (127)                75
Kolb, Brian (129)                   75
Reilich, Bill (134)                    75
O’Mara, Thomas (137)           75
Hawley, Stephen (139)          75
Finch, Gary (123)                   70
Errigo, Joseph (130)              70
Quinn, Jack (146)                   70
Burling, Daniel (147)             70
Bacalles, James (134)            65
Hayes, James (148)               65
Giglio, Joe (149)                     65
Boyle, Philip (                      60
Tobacco, Louis (62)                60
Rabbitt, Ann (97)                    60
Butler, March (117)                60  
Oaks, Robert (128)                60

Oh, and here’s a complete list of other Assembly Republicans with a score as low or lower than Scozzafava’s:

None

But, would you like of list of Assembly Democrats with Conservative scores higher than Scozzafava’s?

Interesting that you take the CPNY's rating for one year (2008), but don't take into account the previous years where she had much higher ratings.  She was endorsed by CPNY several times for heavens sake.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

I'd be amused to see an alternative scenario in which Hoffman is running on the GOP/Conservative line, and Scozzafava as the third party candidate with only the Independence party, simply to see htmldon's spin in support of Hoffman.

Issue-for-issue, I probably line up more with Hoffman so I suppose you would be right.

I'm sure there are third-party candidates out there that I would agree with more from time to time, but would/should I support them?  Hell no.  Politics is about coalition-building.  If center-right folks start running off into separate ideological camps and leave a united Democratic party, we would have 435 Democratic members of congress.

Scozzafava is certainly to my left on a number of issues - but her position in the Republican party is attacked in the exact same way, using the same methods, by the same people - as my position in the Republican Party.  She's for gay marriage, I'm for civil unions - but I assure you that there are large portions of the Republican Party that doesn't want either position represented in the Party.  She's pro-choice, I'm mostly pro-life but with some exceptions -- but I assure you that there are large portions of the Republican Party that believe that even a hint of tolerance for pro-choice candidates makes one a RINO.   I don't think y'all understand just how bad this sh**t gets.... there is a large and vocal segment of our Party that believes that our most recent Presidential nominee is a liberal that should be thrown out of the Party.

To these folks, many of whom are lining up behind Hoffman's candidacy:

• If you believe in science, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you believe in Evolution, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you believe in global warming, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you support market-based systems to deal with Carbon emissions (like McCain did), you're a Communist.
• If you believe that pro-choice candidates can run as Republicans in moderate districts, you're a RINO and should become a Democrat
• If you're pro-choice, you're already a liberal Democrat.
• If you don't like Fox News, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you don't attend Church, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you are fiscally conservative, but are socially moderate, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you are socially conservative, but fiscally moderate: you're a liberal Democrat.

..... and so on and so forth.


For the citizens of NY-23, this election is about who would make the best Representative in Congress for their interests. 

Yet for the nation, and its political institutions, it has broader implications.  I'm not endorsing Scozzafava for President, for RNC Chair, for chairman of our Platform committee - but I will proudly stand up for her right to be a Republican.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Hoffman.
Between an SEIU backed dem and a ACORN back Rep. I think I would go with the third party.
Owens seems alright but why ruin a tradition, some of those parts havent elected a dem since the 1850's

So let me get this straight...

You call Dede "ACORN-backed" - a claim which has been erroneously made because she was endorsed in the past by the Working Families Party, which is somehow connected with ACORN, as a state legislator and because she is an acquaintance of the WFP vice-chair.

However, you then go on to say that "Owens seems alright", even though he is endorsed IN THIS ELECTION by that very same Working Families Party?  AND - the candidacy of Doug Hoffman is helping to ensure the election of the Working Families Party candidate Bill Owens.

To sum it up:
I'm supporting the candidate who was backed by the WFP while at the same time being one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly.

You're ensuring the election of a man who is backed by Obama, the WFP/Acorn, etc.

"one of the most conservative Republican members of the New York Assembly"?!?

Don,
Instead of making absurd allegations, let’s look at the record. At http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=4433 you will see that Assemblywoman Diedre Scozzafava has a conservative rating of 15 (that’s out of 100).
Here is a (partial) listing or Republican members of the Assembly with higher ratings from Conservatives:
Fitzpatrick, Michael (7)          95
Amedore, George (105)        75
Lopez, Peter (127)                75
Kolb, Brian (129)                   75
Reilich, Bill (134)                    75
O’Mara, Thomas (137)           75
Hawley, Stephen (139)          75
Finch, Gary (123)                   70
Errigo, Joseph (130)              70
Quinn, Jack (146)                   70
Burling, Daniel (147)             70
Bacalles, James (134)            65
Hayes, James (148)               65
Giglio, Joe (149)                     65
Boyle, Philip (                      60
Tobacco, Louis (62)                60
Rabbitt, Ann (97)                    60
Butler, March (117)                60  
Oaks, Robert (128)                60

Oh, and here’s a complete list of other Assembly Republicans with a score as low or lower than Scozzafava’s:

None

But, would you like of list of Assembly Democrats with Conservative scores higher than Scozzafava’s?

Interesting that you take the CPNY's rating for one year (2008), but don't take into account the previous years where she had much higher ratings.  She was endorsed by CPNY several times for heavens sake.

Well, lets take your assertions one at a time:

First, yes Scozzafava has been trending left.  She wasn't as far out in left field several years ago as she is today.  However, the question is, are we taking about the current Scozzafava, or the one of several years ago?

Second, yes, she has been endorsed by the Conservative Party of New York in the past, before she went out so far in left-field. 

In conclusion, if Scozzafava had not gone far out in left-field, she would probably have had cake-walk to Congressional election, rather than facing a humiliating defeat!

[nhmagic]

I'd be amused to see an alternative scenario in which Hoffman is running on the GOP/Conservative line, and Scozzafava as the third party candidate with only the Independence party, simply to see htmldon's spin in support of Hoffman.

Issue-for-issue, I probably line up more with Hoffman so I suppose you would be right.

I'm sure there are third-party candidates out there that I would agree with more from time to time, but would/should I support them?  Hell no.  Politics is about coalition-building.  If center-right folks start running off into separate ideological camps and leave a united Democratic party, we would have 435 Democratic members of congress.

Scozzafava is certainly to my left on a number of issues - but her position in the Republican party is attacked in the exact same way, using the same methods, by the same people - as my position in the Republican Party.  She's for gay marriage, I'm for civil unions - but I assure you that there are large portions of the Republican Party that doesn't want either position represented in the Party.  She's pro-choice, I'm mostly pro-life but with some exceptions -- but I assure you that there are large portions of the Republican Party that believe that even a hint of tolerance for pro-choice candidates makes one a RINO.   I don't think y'all understand just how bad this sh**t gets.... there is a large and vocal segment of our Party that believes that our most recent Presidential nominee is a liberal that should be thrown out of the Party.

To these folks, many of whom are lining up behind Hoffman's candidacy:

• If you believe in science, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you believe in Evolution, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you believe in global warming, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you support market-based systems to deal with Carbon emissions (like McCain did), you're a Communist.
• If you believe that pro-choice candidates can run as Republicans in moderate districts, you're a RINO and should become a Democrat
• If you're pro-choice, you're already a liberal Democrat.
• If you don't like Fox News, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you don't attend Church, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you are fiscally conservative, but are socially moderate, you're a liberal Democrat.
• If you are socially conservative, but fiscally moderate: you're a liberal Democrat.

..... and so on and so forth.


For the citizens of NY-23, this election is about who would make the best Representative in Congress for their interests. 

Yet for the nation, and its political institutions, it has broader implications.  I'm not endorsing Scozzafava for President, for RNC Chair, for chairman of our Platform committee - but I will proudly stand up for her right to be a Republican.

Alright, all of this must be answered.  Starting first with your list:

If you believe in science, you're a liberal Democrat.
-This is the ad hominem attack that liberal democrats always use.  It implies two things when a liberal uses it: that a conservative doesn’t support stem cell research and a conservative does not support global warming.  It also implies that both of those issues are settled “science” when they clearly are not.

If you believe in Evolution, you're a liberal Democrat.
-More often than not, yes, that’s true.  To believe in evolution is to suggest that man is nothing more than animal, and that as such, should not be governed by laws or morals of any kind.  Furthermore, evolution has been used to justify both eugenics (as advocated by liberal Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, initially against lower blacks) and genocide (Hitler, a socialist).  It has been used to justify all sorts of deviant sexual behavior (Im not talking homosexuality – that’s ok) such as bestiality, and sex with children.  Additionally, nearly every claim of evolution, has been debunked as fraudulent – including the taped moths on trees “experiment” that was placed in tons of textbooks.  The theory of course sounds good and rational, but there’s still no proof after all these years.

If you believe in global warming, you're a liberal Democrat.
-Or an idiot, see above about science… Even liberals don’t believe in global warming.  It is made up so that they can pass legislation to further their control over all aspects of peoples lives.

If you support market-based systems to deal with Carbon emissions (like McCain did), you're a Communist.
-See global warming…and those market-based systems funnel money to Goldman Sachs and GE, so the individual that supports isn’t Communist – they are Corrupt

If you believe that pro-choice candidates can run as Republicans in moderate districts, you're a RINO and should become a Democrat
-It entirely depends on what type of district the individual runs in.  Is that a pro-choice district, and if its not, why wasn’t the pro-life candidate selected?

If you're pro-choice, you're already a liberal Democrat.
-See above

If you don't like Fox News, you're a liberal Democrat.
-Yes that’s true too for the most part.  Liberals follow party and left-wing blog commands to hate Fox News and try to spread that message.   The reason why is because it exposes their corruption and has the only conservative opinion programs out of all of the major networks in addition to its traditional news and liberal opinion programs (Geraldo, Greta).

If you don't attend Church, you're a liberal Democrat.
-There you are just way off.  Another whiny claim…

If you are fiscally conservative, but are socially moderate, you're a liberal Democrat.
-Fine, but be full fledged fiscally conservative if you are one of those swinger types.  We can run them in liberal areas and that’s great, but most “fiscally conservative, socially liberal” republicans are hardly “fiscally conservative”.  See Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, et. al.

If you are socially conservative, but fiscally moderate: you're a liberal Democrat.
-Generally, the members of this group are not considered liberal to even the most right-wing.  It all depends on how truly “socially conservative” they are.  There’s more to social conservatism than just gay marriage and abortion – its school prayer, its patriotism, its immigration, etc.

Now, you say that you proudly support Scozzafava’s right to call herself a Republican.  I do too, but I do not support her claim to represent the party in elective office when she clearly holds the views of President Obama in all, but one issue, gun control.  She has voted for tax increases so many times that even her democrat opponent is attacking her for it.  She supports the most vile of President Obama’s legislation including card-check, deathcare, stimulus, and Im sure if given the opportunity, it would be even more.  The thing though that is most unforgivable about her is that she acts like a democrat.  A reporter from the Weekly Standard (a center-right magazine) came to one of her meetings to interview her.  She called the cops on him fraudulently claiming that he was screaming at her and that she was in fear of her safety.  The reporter did not scream at her at all, in fact he tried to politely ask her questions.  Even the cop who detained the reporter apologized wishing he didn’t have to detain him.

I don’t blame Scozzafava, however, for the whole fiasco.  I blame the NRCC and the elite republicans in Albany that got together to run her as our candidate in the first place.  A primary between her and Hoffman would have clearly rendered Hoffman the winner of that and the district because that district has been represented by a reliable conservative for years.  The NRCC’s involvement is what makes this such a poison pill for conservatives.  How can we support a party that won’t even run a conservative candidate in a conservative district?  And if you’re going to run a socially liberal candidate, then for God’s sake make sure they are completely fiscally conservative. Instead, they chose someone who even toyed with becoming a democrat prior to this special election.  It would have been Specter all over again, probably in shorter time.

[Joe Republic]

To believe in evolution is to suggest that man is nothing more than animal

Well, duh.  We're not exactly vegetable or mineral, are we?

... and as such, should not be governed by laws or morals of any kind.

Whoa whoa whoa, wtf?  That's a hell of a strawman you have there; it'd be a shame if anything bad happened to it.

Even liberals don’t believe in global warming.  It is made up so that they can pass legislation to further their control over all aspects of peoples lives.

Uh... huh.  Got any more nutty conspiracy theories you'd like to share?

Oh great, you do:

Liberals follow party and left-wing blog commands to hate Fox News and try to spread that message.

You may have now become my favorite teabagger on the forum.  Awesome. 

[Landslide Lyndon]

I think CoburnIn2012 just got some competition for the "Most Hilarious Right-Wing Nutjob of 2009 Award".

[Lief 🗽]

The Republican.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Hoffman

[Meeker]

Owens of course. I could never vote for one of the Bad People.

[nclib]

I'd probably hold my nose and vote for Owens at this point.

Yes. Though I could see a (liberal) argument for supporting Scozzafava if the Republicans had solid control of the House and she would be influencial of the GOP's agenda.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Electing Democrats is more important than electing people who stand up for what I believe in.

[Meeker]

Electing Democrats is more important than electing people who stand up for what I believe in.

In the grand scheme of things, yes.