Vice-Presidential Election Amendment [At Final Vote]

[Marokai Backbeat]

The amendment, introduced yesterday, is going up for a vote at the first opportunity after I get some rest, as I have absolutely no intention of engaging Jas on this matter whatsoever.

[Јas]

I'm willing to hear both sides of the debate. While at first, the idea of vice-Senator seemed silly, it actually isn't an awful idea.

Many thanks Senator.


I'd encourage all members of the chamber to review the amendment, consider the reasons for their support of the Vice Presidency, and consider whether in the interests of consistency, we ought to consider expanding this idea to the membership of this chamber.

As stated previously, I am always open to amending the specifics and details, I would hope though that when this initiative does come to vote, Senators can vote on the principle rather than the specifics initially - there is plenty of time to hammer out details later.

[Јas]

The amendment, introduced yesterday, is going up for a vote at the first opportunity after I get some rest, as I have absolutely no intention of engaging Jas on this matter whatsoever.

As is your prerogative sir. I would though welcome your input. This chamber has a responsibility to, among other things, consider not just the actualities of governing, but also the institutions of governance.

This Senate has found favour with the Vice Presidency. I submit therefore that it strikes as very odd indeed, that we are not consistent in dealing with vacanies across the elected arms of our government. I'm not sure why you oppose such an extension (especially as it is founded on your arguments as to why we ought to value the institution of the Vice Presidency), but would be very grateful for your thoughts on the matter.

[tmthforu94]

I'm willing to hear both sides of the debate. While at first, the idea of vice-Senator seemed silly, it actually isn't an awful idea.

I'm going to interpret this as siding with Jas' challenge.

So, way to go, Tmth. You just enabled Jas to completely waste the Senate's time with this frivolous and unrelated garbage.

The motion to override my decision as passed.

I thought it needed 1/3 of the Senate?  3 Senators is less than that...

[Franzl]

I'm willing to hear both sides of the debate. While at first, the idea of vice-Senator seemed silly, it actually isn't an awful idea.

I'm going to interpret this as siding with Jas' challenge.

So, way to go, Tmth. You just enabled Jas to completely waste the Senate's time with this frivolous and unrelated garbage.

The motion to override my decision as passed.

I thought it needed 1/3 of the Senate?  3 Senators is less than that...

I believe the PPT doesn't count, making it 3/9.

[tmthforu94]

I'm willing to hear both sides of the debate. While at first, the idea of vice-Senator seemed silly, it actually isn't an awful idea.

I'm going to interpret this as siding with Jas' challenge.

So, way to go, Tmth. You just enabled Jas to completely waste the Senate's time with this frivolous and unrelated garbage.

The motion to override my decision as passed.

I thought it needed 1/3 of the Senate?  3 Senators is less than that...

I believe the PPT doesn't count, making it 3/9.

Ah, that makes sense...

I think it's an intriguing idea. It would certainly change up the game. I just really don't think it is needed.
Jas, why are vice-senators needed?

[Marokai Backbeat]

The following amendment is now at a vote, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

Nays are of course encouraged.

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Nay

[Fritz]

Nay

[Purple State]

Just my thoughts: Vice Senators would add way too many seats to the game, drastically reducing, if not completely eliminating competition in elections.

[MaxQue]

Nay

[Franzl]

Just my thoughts: Vice Senators would add way too many seats to the game, drastically reducing, if not completely eliminating competition in elections.

Yes, many offices are already uncompetitive as it is.


strong NAY

[Јas]

Aye

I'm a bit disappointed I didn't get the proper allocation of debating time though.

Jas, why are vice-senators needed?

For precisely the same reason the Vice President is needed!

[Franzl]

Aye

Jas, why are vice-senators needed?

For precisely the same reason the Vice President is needed!

You still haven't explained how the Senate isn't able to function in the event of a vacancy.

[Јas]

Aye

Jas, why are vice-senators needed?

For precisely the same reason the Vice President is needed!

You still haven't explained how the Senate isn't able to function in the event of a vacancy.

It is able to function, but then so is the executive - noting especially that (i) the Cabinet remains in place and (ii) that under my proposal there would remain a continuum of executive power. However these arguments were dismissed. I can only presume the Senate feels the same way about their own offices - which are the most active elements of governance in Atlasia.

You're also overlooking all the various benefits that having a VP brings (see Marokai's arguments on previous pages) - they're exactly the same benefits that Vice Senators would bring also.

[Franzl]

Aye

Jas, why are vice-senators needed?

For precisely the same reason the Vice President is needed!

You still haven't explained how the Senate isn't able to function in the event of a vacancy.

It is able to function, but then so is the executive - noting especially that (i) the Cabinet remains in place and (ii) that under my proposal there would remain a continuum of executive power. However these arguments were dismissed. I can only presume the Senate feels the same way about their own offices - which are the most active elements of governance in Atlasia.

You're also overlooking all the various benefits that having a VP brings (see Marokai's arguments on previous pages) - they're exactly the same benefits that Vice Senators would bring also.

In my opinion, the executive branch of government in our system is simply too powerful to settle for a temporary committee of governors to handle the job. The Vice Presidency also settles tied votes in the Senate (which I know, you oppose ).

Not to mention that the Vice President has fulfilled important duties of the PPT in the past when it was necessary.

I don't see any reason to change that system at present.

I contend that a vacancy does not affect the way the Senate functions, but a vacant Presidency has the potential to be very harmful under certain circumstances.

[Јas]

In my opinion, the executive branch of government in our system is simply too powerful to settle for a temporary committee of governors to handle the job.

I must respectfully disagree. The executive branch has been, in practice, the weakest of the 3 branches of the Atlasian federal government. What issues/problems have necessitated Presidential intervention in recent times?

I accept nonetheless that it is prudent to have a fall-back should the President not be around - I just don't believe it comes close to warranting a dedicated position. If one doesn't like my proposed alternative - fine. There are many possible options, e.g., a simple line of succession. The principle question though remains the same - is the Vice Presidency necessary and beneficial to Atlasia?

The Vice Presidency also settles tied votes in the Senate (which I know, you oppose ).

Indeed he does. But apart from American traditionalism, why? Is this the best solution?
Is it reason to specifically elect the junior partner on a Presidential ticket?

Not to mention that the Vice President has fulfilled important duties of the PPT in the past when it was necessary.

Indeed this is true. But it's not necessary. Again, absent American traditionalism, how does one justify this practice? Why can't the Senate handle it's own affairs?

Why can't we have a deputy PPT, or have the Dean handle such temporary situations?
What benefit accrues to outsorcing the job?

And if outsourcing is the preferred option, still, why have the VP do it? Why not the AG, or the Northeastern Lt. Governor, or a random citizen?

I contend that a vacancy does not affect the way the Senate functions, but a vacant Presidency has the potential to be very harmful under certain circumstances.

But nobody is proposing that a vacancy in the office should persist. I'm merely arguing that our current system of replacement is less than satisfactory.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Just my thoughts: Vice Senators would add way too many seats to the game, drastically reducing, if not completely eliminating competition in elections.

I agree even though I can support adding one or two positions overall, adding this many is asking for trouble.

Nay

[tmthforu94]

Nay

[Rowan]

Nay

[afleitch]

Nay

[Marokai Backbeat]

8 Nays, 1 Aye, this amendment has failed and debate continues.

Now we can get back to the actual topic at hand.

[Hash]

Nay

[Fritz]

Whew!  Now, if Jas will stop amending this, perhaps we can get something done here. 

As I've previously stated, my only purpose is to make the elections a little more interesting, and more democratic.  Currently, a voter cannot vote for a presidential candidate of one party, and a VP candidate of another- unless the parties themselves build their tickets as such.  This amendment gives voters this freedom.

I will agree with Jas to a point, however: the Vice-Presidency is a largely useless office, despite its necessity.  I therefore further propose the following amendment to this amendment.  This should be added as section 2, if adopted:

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This makes the Vice-Presidency a very significant office indeed, and puts the question of who will lead the Senate into the hands of the voters rather than just the Senate.  And why does the Senate need both a President and a PPT??

[Marokai Backbeat]

Well, firstly, I'd like to note my opposition to such an amendment. I might be a little biased, but I see no reason to do this since if there's a vacancy in the Presidency, which is what the Vice President primarily exists for, then the Senate has to put someone foward to run the Senate anyway. Why reverse the process of running the Senate? System works fine as-is.

Secondly, we're free to elect the VP to run the Senate if we want, nothing is stopping us.

Thirdly, I'd really rather this was done as a separate amendment, as it takes another issue into play and completely distracts from the intent of this bill, which is separating the electing of the P and VP. I'd really like it if we could just focus on the topic at hand instead of trying to bog a very sensitive amendment down with secondary issues.

[Fritz]

Your opposition is noted, and was expected.