The 'Socialism' attack on President Obama

[ChaosInTheSky]

Dude, your answers aren't providing to any side of this. Could you maybe say a little more than two lines worth? And then maybe give us some proof as to what you are saying?

I like to assume a certain (pretty basic, actually) level of knowledge from other people. I assume that anyone writing about the Nazis knows what IG Farben was, for example. I also assume that anyone who posts on a political board knows who de Gaulle was.

The leader of the French Resistance. I know this. All I'm asking is that you go a bit more in depth and explain it better. It's hard to get an idea of what you are saying when you say so little. I'm just requesting this of you to be more fair.

[ChaosInTheSky]

Basically what I'm asking is, to those of you on the left: do you really think that Socialist ideals are a good thing for America?

Yes.

But Obama's certainly no Socialist.

How on earth do you think Socialism is good for a nation that was founded on Capitalist belifes? Please explain.

Because I happen to like a basic social safety net, the post office, the fire department, financial assistance to the elderly and disabled, a highway system, Medicare & Medicaid, public education.. among other things.

I'm by no means a socialist, but what do the beliefs upon which the nation was founded have to do with what's "good for the nation"?

Yeah, that too.

I'm talking full out Russian style Socialism, not that kind of stuff.

[Marokai Backbeat]

But those are all socialist ideas that society has come to accept and support in huge numbers. My point is that you either don't understand what socialism is, or you don't understand that socialism isn't automatically bad.

[Хahar 🤔]

The Soviet Union was state capitalist, not socialist.

But really, you lack an elementary understanding of history, beyond what Jonah Goldberg told you. Please leave.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The leader of the French Resistance. I know this.

Yeeeesssss... but something else as well (and later).

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No, I'm being fair. Not very nice, but perfectly fair.

(for the record, IG Farben was a German chemical giant, the largest company in Europe (some of the time), a major financial donor to the Nazi regime (and as the companies profits went up, so did donations), a major user of slave labour and the manufacturer of Zyklon B. It was broken up (more or less) by the Allies at the end of the War. Krupp is another well-known example of a big company doing well out of the Nazis).

[Vepres]

But those are all socialist ideas that society has come to accept and support in huge numbers. My point is that you either don't understand what socialism is, or you don't understand that socialism isn't automatically bad.

There is a difference between socialism and socialistic programs, I believe the OP was referring to the former. But I think this is a silly thread anyway.

[Marokai Backbeat]

But those are all socialist ideas that society has come to accept and support in huge numbers. My point is that you either don't understand what socialism is, or you don't understand that socialism isn't automatically bad.

There is a difference between socialism and socialistic programs, I believe the OP was referring to the former. But I think this is a silly thread anyway.

Either way it's stupid. He asked if we thought socialist ideas were good for the country, I said yes, he was appalled, so I explained.

The author obviously has no understanding of the ideology nor does he have any historical knowledge on the topic.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Lately, many have accused the President Obama of embracing Socialism . As someone who was once a member of the Communist Party, I have researched Socialism/Communism for years. I think this quote best sums up my feelings about it now:

"How do you tell a Communist? It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. How do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who UNDERSTANDS Marx and Lenin." -Ronald Reagan.

Having said that, after I did my research, I understood how unfair, and how damaging the idea of Socialism/Communism is. I now consider myself a proud Libertarian, and am a huge opponent of gigantic government.

My question is: if Obama is 'the farthest thing from a Socialist' as some of his supporters claim, how do you explain this?
http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/1054/1/157/

As a former member of this party, I can attest that most of it's members were ECSTATIC when Obama won the Presidency, and some called him "The best chance our party has".


If Obama does not hold Socialist ideals, why did he say this?

"One of the, I think, the tragedies of the civil rights movement, was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change, and in some ways we still suffer from that." -Barack Obama


Basically what I'm asking is, to those of you on the left: do you really think that Socialist ideals are a good thing for America?

As opposed to authoritarian and overtly religious corporatist ideals?

Hell yes.. I prefer socialism over that any day.

Could you please explain yourself a little better and maybe provide a source?

The fact that the other alternative, the Republicans, are religious corporatist moral authoritarians is common knowledge.  One does not need a citation for common knowledge.

I was merely stating my OPINION, which also does not need a citation, that I prefer socialism to the aforementioned ideology.

The whole premise of your argument is the assumption that it is common knowledge that socialism is automatically bad in all circumstances no matter what.

Believe it or not, that's not the case, and even if it was, you've cited or sourced nothing to prove it other than a weak attempt at quoting a clearly biased author.

This is not 1950s Wisconsin... McCarthy is long dead.  No, I don't want the USA to become the Soviet Union.  I believe in a democratically elected pragmatic government that ensures some of the most basic needs of the people while also fostering innovation, creativity, and a spirit of entrepreneurship.

If that is "socialist" to you.. fine.  I don't care.  But I'm not going to parse with you over semantics about the common perceptions and definition of the word "socialism".

[WillK]

Again, the Nazis took over all the industry in the private sector.

Don't think that IG Farben was ever nationalised.

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Well, no actually (was de Gaulle a Socialist?) but that's for another day.

Dude, your answers aren't providing to any side of this. Could you maybe say a little more than two lines worth? And then maybe give us some proof as to what you are saying?

Why should he have to provide proof but you can get away with unsupported bullsh**t?

[WillK]

...  Krupp is another well-known example of a big company doing well out of the Nazis).

Other well known examples are the German subsidiaries of Ford and GM.

[Scam of God]

The CPUSA is notorious in Marxist circles for supporting Democratic politicians - they haven't really been Marxist since the Sino-Soviet split; I say this as a historian of Marxist thought, and as a libertarian. They are 'reformers', and not even social democrats.

Most committed Marxists opt out of the political process and the party structure altogether, to focus on direct action in the workplace.

EDIT: Also, you're all idiots and not one of you has the slightest idea as to what you're talking about, the libertarians here included (and particularly).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Ah jeez, not this sh*t again. If it this continues I think it should be made illegal for Americans to comment on European history.

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... with most of its bosses getting minimum jail time and later went on in many cases to end up being back in charge of the successor companies, which still include some of the biggest chemical corporations in the world. Justice Yay!

For the record, I consider calling the Soviet Union "State capitalist" something of a left-wing cop-out, though that isn't to say that it wasn't that (but it was other things as well).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

... with most of its bosses getting minimum jail time and later went on in many cases to end up being back in charge of the successor companies, which still include some of the biggest chemical corporations in the world. Justice Yay!

Hah, yes. That was wonderful, really, wonderful. It certainly inspires wonder!

[The Mikado]

Ah jeez, not this sh*t again. If it this continues I think it should be made illegal for Americans to comment on European history.

Aww...we aren't all foolish libertarians with no understanding of the evolution of terminology.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Ah jeez, not this sh*t again. If it this continues I think it should be made illegal for Americans to comment on European history.

Aww...we aren't all foolish libertarians with no understanding of the evolution of terminology.

Well, Except for you obviously.

The ignorance out there is however quite unbelievable. Not just by glibertarians.

[Free Palestine]

Ah yes, the Atlas passtime of gang-raping libertarians.

[Хahar 🤔]

Ah yes, the Atlas passtime of gang-raping libertarians.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Ah yes, the Atlas passtime of gang-raping libertarians.

We have plenty of Libertarians here.

We just hate stupid people.

[JSojourner]

Nazism has absolutely nothing to do with modern liberalism, nothing at all.

Franzl, haven't you been paying attention to some of the more enlightened posters here?

Hitler was a leftist liberal.  Coburn's pastor told him so.  And it was the National SOCIALIST Party, you know.  What other evidence do you need?

[Ban my account ffs!]

The only thing worse than Minnesota Libertarians are Minnesota Republicans.  I'm glad most of the Minnesotans on this site have the common decency not to be idiots.

I gave this guy a chance.. but he seems a little on the militant side.

My guess is that he comes from one of the more affluent suburbs of the Twin Cities... though I could be wrong. 

[Citizen James]

Just in defense of the real libertarians on this board (that is, those who actually have a philosophy based on maximizing individual liberty for all), there are more than a few people calling themselves libertarians (likely the OP included) whose personal philosophy isn't anywhere near that ideal.  Although I suppose the LP can't be left off the hook (Bob Barr? Really?), several posters and at least part of their party (i.e. the reform caucus) are relatively sane.  (In fact, I  consider the LRC to be closer to traditional republican values than the current GOP).

Ironically, the ideal state for both Libertarians and Communists is the same - one in which people are considered responsible enough to make their own decisions, and government is not needed (Or minimal to deal with aberrations).    The main difference is in how to get there.

On the other hand, many LINOs (for lack of a better term) seem to be high end authoritarians - fantasizing themselves as masters in a new feudalism in which the powerful (in which they assume they will be because of their massive egos) do whatever they want and the rest are required to live on their terms.  In short, anarchocapitalsim is not an ally of libertarianism.