Opinion of Turkey

[GMantis]

I think it's time for another one of this.

[k-onmmunist]

Freedom Country.

[Hans-im-Glück]

neither FC nor HC

[The Ex-Factor]

Too nationalistic, smoke too many cigarettes. Horrible country (though slightly)

[minionofmidas]

Both. Definitely on the right track at the moment, though much remains to be done and the elected gov't still has to tread far too carefully (and has its own moderately horriblish points o/c).

[GMantis]

Both. Definitely on the right track at the moment, though much remains to be done and the elected gov't still has to tread far too carefully (and has its own moderately horriblish points o/c).

Growing Islamization is the right track?

[minionofmidas]

Both. Definitely on the right track at the moment, though much remains to be done and the elected gov't still has to tread far too carefully (and has its own moderately horriblish points o/c).

Growing Islamization is the right track?

No, that's the moderately horriblish point (on issues such as local alcohol bans - it's frankly not possible to support the Kemalist position on the headscarf issue and not be laughed out of my personal court). Growing Democratization is the right track. Growing Free Speech is the right track, though some remains to be done. Growing public presence of Kurdish is the AAA+ right track.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm amazed the current government has kept prostitution legal. They still are fucking horrible regardless.

[minionofmidas]

Prostitution is legal in Turkey? I didn't know that.

Of course prostitution exists everywhere in the world regardless of the law.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Prostitution is legal in Turkey? I didn't know that.

Of course prostitution exists everywhere in the world regardless of the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Turkey

Prostitution is legal in Senegal too of all places. I've also heard Lebanon though contradictory things, not sure if it's actually legal or simply "tolerated".

[Хahar 🤔]

HC

Turkish-language adhan?

[JSojourner]

Freedom Fowl.  I prefer the white meat, however.

[Silent Hunter]

Neutral. Has good and bad elements.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

FC, sad Poland did not had someone like Ataturk, who would enforce strictly separation of church and state

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

FC, sad Poland did not had someone like Ataturk, who would enforce strictly separation of church and state

Uh, you had a communist regime.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

FC, sad Poland did not had someone like Ataturk, who would enforce strictly separation of church and state

Nationalism is at least as stupid and reactionary than religious fundamentalism. Separation of Church and State is great, but not with authoritarian nationalism instead.

[Хahar 🤔]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

FC, sad Poland did not had someone like Ataturk, who would enforce strictly separation of church and state

There was no such separation. His "separation" was state control of religion.

[GMantis]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

FC, sad Poland did not had someone like Ataturk, who would enforce strictly separation of church and state

Uh, you had a communist regime.

Which was far more effective than Ataturk's reforms.

[GMantis]

Massive HC. National-fascio-negationnist trending islamist.

Generally my opinion and I might add that irredentism enjoys strong support there.

Both. Definitely on the right track at the moment, though much remains to be done and the elected gov't still has to tread far too carefully (and has its own moderately horriblish points o/c).

Growing Islamization is the right track?

No, that's the moderately horriblish point (on issues such as local alcohol bans - it's frankly not possible to support the Kemalist position on the headscarf issue and not be laughed out of my personal court). Growing Democratization is the right track. Growing Free Speech is the right track, though some remains to be done. Growing public presence of Kurdish is the AAA+ right track.

Considering the extremely strong nationalism and militarism in Turkey, not to mention the irredentism, the last thing that is needed is Islamism, especially if it can be used as justification for the above mentioned irredentism. Also, Turkey is probably the most successful non-oil possesing Muslim country and this is to great degree due to the secularism. So the Islamization of Turkey is bad for both the country and the region and outweighs the small benefits of the reforms which have been made (mostly under foreign pressure).

[minionofmidas]

I suppose by foreign pressure you mean that the AKP wants to join the EU (while the CHP and the army don't want to, not any more. Because they've understood that they couldn't keep their current powerful position afterwards.)

[GMantis]

I suppose by foreign pressure you mean that the AKP wants to join the EU (while the CHP and the army don't want to, not any more. Because they've understood that they couldn't keep their current powerful position afterwards.)

Yes, that's what I meant. I also think that if Turkey enters the EU without reforming, then there will probably be no further reforms: there won't be simply enough pressure to continue the unpopular reforms.

[minionofmidas]

I suppose by foreign pressure you mean that the AKP wants to join the EU (while the CHP and the army don't want to, not any more. Because they've understood that they couldn't keep their current powerful position afterwards.)

Yes, that's what I meant. I also think that if Turkey enters the EU without reforming, then there will probably be no further reforms: there won't be simply enough pressure to continue the unpopular reforms.

True*. Except that they aren't actually unpopular. I think the last elections speak a pretty clear language.
They're unpopular with the powers that be. Which also means they cost political capital. Still, quite a few things have been achieved - a Kurdish language channel on government tv? Kurdish primary instruction (well, woefully little of it. But hey, these things take time. For lack of competent teachers if nothing else. Though also for lack of political will to finance a major program, and probably have it struck down by the army's cronies on the Supreme Court anyways)? Some token Kurdish Nationalists in Parliament? Kenan Evren would be rotating in his grave if it wasn't for the fact that he's still alive.

*Just look at Greece and Cyprus. Heck, look at Italy.

[GMantis]

I suppose by foreign pressure you mean that the AKP wants to join the EU (while the CHP and the army don't want to, not any more. Because they've understood that they couldn't keep their current powerful position afterwards.)

Yes, that's what I meant. I also think that if Turkey enters the EU without reforming, then there will probably be no further reforms: there won't be simply enough pressure to continue the unpopular reforms.

True*. Except that they aren't actually unpopular. I think the last elections speak a pretty clear language.
They're unpopular with the powers that be. Which also means they cost political capital. Still, quite a few things have been achieved - a Kurdish language channel on government tv? Kurdish primary instruction (well, woefully little of it. But hey, these things take time. For lack of competent teachers if nothing else. Though also for lack of political will to finance a major program, and probably have it struck down by the army's cronies on the Supreme Court anyways)? Some token Kurdish Nationalists in Parliament? Kenan Evren would be rotating in his grave if it wasn't for the fact that he's still alive.

*Just look at Greece and Cyprus. Heck, look at Italy.

The majority supports entry into the EU. But they might not support all the reforms that are needed. The support for EU membership has been declining and this might be a reason why.

[minionofmidas]

The majority supports entry into the EU. But they might not support all the reforms that are needed. The support for EU membership has been declining and this might be a reason why.

That is of course true to an extent.