A Letter to the Atheists and Agnostics of Atlasia

[JSojourner]

Friends,

Of late, it seems there have been some semi-regular customers here who are Christian and who, either out of sincere conviction or tortured understandings of Christian teaching and doctrine  seem hellbent on being racist and/or purely hateful.  Perhaps they are socks.  Perhaps they are real.  It doesn't matter.

I need to say a few things to those of you who are, like me, bothered by their cruel intentions and hatred.  As a Christian -- and one who believes some things I reckon you find pretty outlandish -- I apologize for these sorry and shameful representatives of my faith. 

I understand why they might motivate you to respond with sigs and general statements that I, personally, find offensive and blasphemous.  Sometimes, assholes need tweaking.  Even if they are "assholes for Jesus". (And trust me, even if they are small in number here, they are ubiquitous within Christendom.  Fred Phelps is hardly the only one out there.)

But I want to invite you -- my Atheist and Agnostic friends -- to consider three things.

First, I want you to consider -- not Christians -- but the One we call Christ.  I cannot force you or even persuade you to believe in Him.  I wish you would.  I pray that you will, one day.  But that's your decision.  Too, I need you to know that if you do not believe in Him -- now or ever -- I consider that your sacred right.  I will fight, with everything in me, to preserve your right to have no religion or to choose one unlike my own.  Also, believing or unbelieving, I will remain your friend. I am not so haughty as to think I have nothing yet to learn...or to think I can't learn from my pals of a non-theistic bent.  But I do think it's unwise to mistake Christians for Christ.  Insult me, if you must.  Insult prophetman and Fred Phelps if it helps.  I believe I have more than once.  And if you insult Jesus, I am not predicting hellfire or a lightning bolt.  I only insist you are targeting the wrong character.  He is all love.  And if you read His words (The Sermon on the Mount is a good start), I'm not even remotely suggesting you will become a believer.  But I am suggesting you'll realize this is not someone any decent person can feel good about insulting.

Second, I want you to know that I see Atheists in a very positive light in terms of the kinds of people they are.  I have some very dear, dear friends who are avowed Atheists.  One them, a sweet, older lady in North Carolina, actually writes letters in support of persecuted Christians in places like North Korea or Saudi Arabia.  She is that good.  She knows what it is to be in a ridiculed and marginalized minority -- particularly in her Bible belt town.  Automatically, her heart goes out to anyone (Christian, Buddhist, whatever) who is persecuted for their beliefs.  Another Atheist business associate of mine is known in our "industry" as a paragon of honesty and honor.  So please -- when some Christians act or speak as though Atheists are incapable of moral behavior -- know that many of us reject that kind of stupidity.  We see and experience the good you all do on an almost daily basis.  I would only ask this of you.  Would you please remember us the same way?  We gave the world Crusades and the Inquisition.  But we also gave the world the St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital and most of the soup kitchens and homeless shelters in your community.  For every Fred Phelps, there is a Mother Theresa.  For every James Dobson, there is a Martin Luther King, Junior.  We believe in Jesus. Some of us even act like Him some of the time.  (Others of us aspire to, but fail more often than not.)

Finally, I need to tell you God loves you whether you love Him back or not.  God does want you.  And God does want you to want Him/Her in return.  I believe God demonstrated His love for you and me in becoming human, as a baby.  He lived as a human, suffered our ills and persecutions and rejections.  And He taught us how to live.  He offered us forgiveness and a new way of life by dying on the cross for our sins and, yes literally, rising from the dead.  The invitation is always open.  God, in Jesus, loves you.  And God invites you into an embrace that is impossible to adequately describe with words.

I guess that's my way of saying, I care about you.  But I remind you what I said above -- your rejection of any or all of this will not daunt me in the least when it comes to fighting for your rights or being your friend.

I just had to say that.  Not just 'cause it's what I believe.  But because I wanted to be certain you remembered that there were Christians who -- though they very much want you to join the adventure -- nonetheless respect and like you...very, very much.

Nothing else, except thanks for your time.  As that great philosopher, Porky Pig, said --  "Th-th-th-that's all folks!"

[The Mikado]

First off, I strongly appreciate your message.  That said, I must ask:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There are (non-American) Christians in Saudi Arabia?

[JSojourner]

First off, I strongly appreciate your message.  That said, I must ask:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There are (non-American) Christians in Saudi Arabia?

Very few.  There have been, historically.  Most of the Saudi Christians have been beheaded or have left the country. 

Non-Saudi Christians are permitted in the country.  Americans tend to be the least troubled by the law, but the poorer people who come in as "guest workers" (often, slave laborers) are very badly treated...particularly if they are not Muslim.

But the few indigenous Saudi Christians today are those who have converted.  These people are often put to death as soon as their faith is reported to the government.  The Saudis are nothing, if not "equal-opportunity", in terms of murdering people for being religious.  If you convert to Buddhism, Hinduism or some other faith, they'll be quite content to lop your head off for you, too.

I would suspect North Korea is at least as bad.  Maybe worse.

My friend's compassion for Christians and other religious people -- when she has absolutely no religious interests at all -- continues to inspire me.  I could never be an Atheist, but if I was one, I would want to be like her.

[Mechaman]

Well seeing as my parents are dye in the wool bleedingheart christians (like the ones JSojourner speaks of), I can say that I definitely don't hold all christians as heartless bigots. I think alot of atheists when attack too oft resort to human nature and just make blanket attacks on religion. Yes I'm guilty of this sometimes.

But what we need to do is stop thinking ourselves as either christians or atheists (or any other collective groups), but as either "sanes" or "assholes".
That's my thoughts for the evening.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

[??????????]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Dude, why are you always "on" so to speak?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Dude, why are you always "on" so to speak?

I usually have the forum open while at work, though of course I'm usually not paying much attention to it or only browsing and checking quickly.

[??????????]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Dude, why are you always "on" so to speak?

I usually have the forum open while at work, though of course I'm usually not paying much attention to it or only browsing and checking quickly.

That's not what I meant. You somewhat attacked a well thought out and constructed post.

[fezzyfestoon]

I appreciate that and can say from experience in this particular sense that it does matter to hear that sometimes.  It's when people take the time to express care and compassion that the world becomes a little less unbearable for someone.  It's really great that you've remained positive and openminded about an issue that draws such hurtful and sometimes hateful words out of people.  Vocalizing support of the "other side" so to speak is a sign of a truly compassionate and intelligent person.  So thanks for being a positive force in the world and for your cause.  As Bob Marley said, "the people who are trying to make this world worse aren’t taking a day off. How can I?"

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Dude, why are you always "on" so to speak?

I usually have the forum open while at work, though of course I'm usually not paying much attention to it or only browsing and checking quickly.

That's not what I meant. You somewhat attacked a well thought out and constructed post.

I just saw it as kind of unnecessary. It's like some California resident apologizing for Robert Stark and explaining how not all Californians are like him.

[Citizen James]

I give you props for a well thought out post.    I am reminded of a quote from Gandhi - "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".  Even some hardcore atheists such as Richard Dawkins have positive things to say about the teachings of Jesus.

Although a theistic agnostic (that is I believe that there may well be some sort of God, but don't think there is any way to tell for sure), I doubt I could be considered Christian by any but the most broad of definitions - though I suppose I might fit in as a universalist who has learned from some of His teachings.

I recognize that there are many good Christians out there.  Both great good and great evil have been done in His name.   Where I take exception is in the idea of God as some sort of tyrant who demands human sacrifice (either directly, or by worshiping the use of His son as a human sacrifice, which is what seems to be implied by the 'died for your sins' terminology) - that sort of deity does not seem like one worthy of respect or reverence.  On the other hand, the idea of Christ's teachings as moving away from the older views of God as an allpowerful tyrant to one of a God who loves His creation and wants them to get along. 

Warning: Long digression follows
(This division is probably the biggest divide within Christianity - sometimes called Love vs. Law. On one side the bookenders who focus on specific rules from the Pentateuch as well as the book of Revelation and are most interested in evangelizing and declaring themselves more devout than others.  The tend to see God as a stern cop/judge - or perhaps a bouncer for their exclusive better than thou attitude of Heaven. On the other side are the ones who tend to focus more on the gospels, and tend to see God as an all forgiving father, perhaps sometimes disappointed, but always loving and forgiving).
(/digression)

Anyway, although I do not believe in any sort of supernatural cause of evil (devils), I think that if there were one, his greatest trick would not have been to convince people that he doesn't exist as the common phrase goes - but convincing people to worship him in the name of Christ - which is what people like Phelps, Dobson, and the other intolerant types essentially do - they embrace and preach evil in His name.  I think people like this, as well as (false) prophetman and his ilk were the sort whom Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7:15-23..

[Gustaf]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Yeah, why be nice when you can be hateful!

This is another good example of why the whole practice of using "Moderate Hero" as an insult is exceedingly stupid. Labelling good qualities one lacks onself with a derogatory term and then using that as an attack is border-line insane.

"This is sensible! Moderate Hero, booh"

"This isn't hateful! Moderate Hero, booh"

Anyway, nice gesture, JS. Bridging divides is always a good reminder for people.

[JSojourner]

Well seeing as my parents are dye in the wool bleedingheart christians (like the ones JSojourner speaks of), I can say that I definitely don't hold all christians as heartless bigots. I think alot of atheists when attack too oft resort to human nature and just make blanket attacks on religion. Yes I'm guilty of this sometimes.

But what we need to do is stop thinking ourselves as either christians or atheists (or any other collective groups), but as either "sanes" or "assholes".
That's my thoughts for the evening.

Perfect!  )

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Silly overtly politically correct and Moderate Hero thread which doesn't tell us anything everyone didn't already know. I highly doubt any non-religious assumed all Christians are like prophetman or hate all atheists. That's blatantly obvious. Good-intended perhaps, but this stuff makes me sick in a "too sweet" way.

Dude, why are you always "on" so to speak?

Mixed emotions, States.  Like watching prophetman going over a cliff in my paid-off and uninsured ’97 Corolla. 

First, I understand JSJ’s desire to be civil to non-believers and to protect their right to freely believe whatever they wish.  Basically, to be a good Samaritan not only in the physical needs of others, but also in the mental needs of others.

Second, I understand BRTD’s objection in that this “politically-correct thingy of friendship and brotherhood over everything” is a sugar-coated-feel-good pill that doesn’t seem to reflect the characters of the bible who caused riots by boldly preaching in the public square a political incorrect message.

So, the question becomes:  Do we, as Christians, have the right balance?  Do we have the love necessary to hunger for the caring of others, while at the same time being honest enough to tell people what they might not want to hear, even if it costs you their friendship?

Basically, can we balance being a good Samaritan in a way that takes on the responsibility of helping others who have fallen, while at the same time instructing others how to gain what God says they lack?  Does our desire for friendship keep us from recognizing the hopeless state of eternal condemnation that now rests on all sinners, and keep us from acknowledging that salvation for the sinner comes only through acceptance of one source, even Jesus Christ?

It’s a good discussion because it forces all Christians to place themselves on the scales. 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Second, I understand BRTD’s objection in that this “politically-correct thingy of friendship and brotherhood over everything” is a sugar-coated-feel-good pill that doesn’t seem to reflect the characters of the bible who caused riots by boldly preaching in the public square a political incorrect message.

So, the question becomes:  Do we, as Christians, have the right balance?  Do we have the love necessary to hunger for the caring of others, while at the same time being honest enough to tell people what they might not want to hear, even if it costs you their friendship?

That wasn't my point at all. If you haven't noticed by my liking of opebo and several other posters I don't have any problems with atheists. I just don't see the need to make such touchy-feely posts about that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Second, I understand BRTD’s objection in that this “politically-correct thingy of friendship and brotherhood over everything” is a sugar-coated-feel-good pill that doesn’t seem to reflect the characters of the bible who caused riots by boldly preaching in the public square a political incorrect message.

So, the question becomes:  Do we, as Christians, have the right balance?  Do we have the love necessary to hunger for the caring of others, while at the same time being honest enough to tell people what they might not want to hear, even if it costs you their friendship?

That wasn't my point at all. If you haven't noticed by my liking of opebo and several other posters I don't have any problems with atheists. I just don't see the need to make such touchy-feely posts about that.

I was simply attempting to inject some resemblance of character into your opinion