Have you ever been in any way offended by Wright?

[jokerman]

Nice try with the emotional appeal and sensational photos, Tweed, but being a man of reason, I don't respond to them.  Despite our vices (which have since been corrected), the prevailing lesson American history has to teach us is that we are still the world's best hope for peace and democracy.  Now just because you're too screwed up to fit in with mainstream American society doesn't mean you have to project your distaste for it on to every facet of its being.

Not to defend hate speech, but being a man of reason myself too (I guess), doesn't the traditional Christian teaching advice against pride an encourage repentance for pass sins, lest one be "damned"?  Isn't glorifying the United States as if it were not a country of sinners in opposition to that?  Seems to me like some people use their country as a proxy for a personal pride their religion prohibits.

Devil's advocate (God's advocate?) here.

Pessimism and Defeatism will not suffice for a repentence of past sins of this nation, only blazing foward in an effort to do good in the world and justice at home will.

[Alcon]

Nice try with the emotional appeal and sensational photos, Tweed, but being a man of reason, I don't respond to them.  Despite our vices (which have since been corrected), the prevailing lesson American history has to teach us is that we are still the world's best hope for peace and democracy.  Now just because you're too screwed up to fit in with mainstream American society doesn't mean you have to project your distaste for it on to every facet of its being.

Not to defend hate speech, but being a man of reason myself too (I guess), doesn't the traditional Christian teaching advice against pride an encourage repentance for pass sins, lest one be "damned"?  Isn't glorifying the United States as if it were not a country of sinners in opposition to that?  Seems to me like some people use their country as a proxy for a personal pride their religion prohibits.

Devil's advocate (God's advocate?) here.

Pessimism and Defeatism will not suffice for a repentence of past sins of this nation, only blazing foward in an effort to do good in the world and justice at home will.

And why does repentance and shame have to entail pessimism and defeatism?  This is not binary, and I don't know why you make it so.  If I have done ill to someone else, I am ashamed, and I am humble, but I do not drop into nihilism.  There is humility without defeatism.  The idea that America must "blaze forward" without addressing its demons is exactly the same idea that causes people to regress and revert in real life.  A country is just an amalgamation of people.  The U.S. should not forget that.

[jokerman]

There's a difference between keeping these demons in the corner of your mind so that you may never repeat them and then on the other hand bringing up these demons and enflaming old scars.  I know America's not perfect but I don't see how the rhetoric of Wright does anyone any good whatsoever.

[Alcon]

There's a difference between keeping these demons in the corner of your mind so that you may never repeat them and then on the other hand bringing up these demons and enflaming old scars.  I know America's not perfect but I don't see how the rhetoric of Wright does anyone any good whatsoever.

I was not disagreeing with that.  I was disagreeing with your contention that "despite our vices (which have since been corrected), the prevailing lesson American history has to teach us is that we are still the world's best hope for peace and democracy."

First of all, I disagree with you contention that our vices have been "corrected."  They have been suppressed.  Do you really think that the capacity for cultural sadism that caused the Holocaust or racial segregation has been "corrected"?  By what?  Whenever these things seem "corrected," they invariably seem to rear their ugly heads again.

What exactly is the harm in recognizing old scars?  Wright's rhetoric is far too aggressive.  But if America can not recognize publically it committed a damnable sin (secular and otherwise) I very much doubt we've "corrected" anything.  Would you trust someone who admits they made a mistake, but gets offended when it's mentioned, to have reformed?  To me, that is a classic sign of someone who has not changed.  We have blood on our hands and in our subconscious.  "Blazing forward" while failing to recognize that accomplishes what?

[JSojourner]

Alcon and Preston -- It may seem odd, but I agree with both of you.

At the heart of Alcon's argument is something a wonderful history professor told me in college.  He said, "If you would dare to celebrate your good history, you must first openly and, with relentless honesty, own your bad history".

Both liberals and conservatives tend to make a false choice of it.  We beat polio.  We put human beings on reservations.  We put a man on the moon.  Jim Crow.  We destroyed fascism. We waged immoral and unjust wars. 

On and on it goes.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

On a personal basis? From what I've seen and heard, no. But then I'm not a target. He's clearly a bigot though.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I couldn't care less what he has to say.

The only people who care what he says are Republicans looking for something twist their knickers another turn.

[Eraserhead]

No, not at all.

[jokerman]

"Blazing forward" while failing to recognize that accomplishes what?

It accomplishes more than rhetoric does.  Sometimes we have to sacrifice doing justice to our ancestors in order to do justice to our posterity.

[Alcon]

"Blazing forward" while failing to recognize that accomplishes what?

It accomplishes more than rhetoric does.  Sometimes we have to sacrifice doing justice to our ancestors in order to do justice to our posterity.

Unless you explain that, it's just rhetoric too.

I do not see why "doing justice to our ancestors" (which I take it includes recognizing and discussing our capacity to do evil as a nation) means we are unable to analyze our old ills and show proper reverence to them.  Again, you'll have to explain to me why you see this is so binary.  Isn't avoiding discussing that capacity for evil doing a greater damage to our posterity?

[Brittain33]

Is the sky blue?

I wouldn't have pegged you as so thin-skinned.

[Lief 🗽]

No, not at all.

[Reluctant Republican]

Not his original comments no, but I was slightly offended when I heard him attack Rice, Powell and Tiger Woods. I think Condi’s as much of a mess as the next person but I’m always irked when the whole “Uncle Tom” card is pulled out. I find it more then a little arrogant that when you belong to a specific race or whatever you are then, according to some radicals, supposed to be beholden to a particular party or ideology. His other remarks though did not offend me at all.

[© tweed]

Nice try with the emotional appeal and sensational photos, Tweed, but being a man of reason, I don't respond to them.  Despite our vices (which have since been corrected), the prevailing lesson American history has to teach us is that we are still the world's best hope for peace and democracy.  Now just because you're too screwed up to fit in with mainstream American society doesn't mean you have to project your distaste for it on to every facet of its being.

equally interesting and scary post.

the reason I picked those pictures (instead of, say, the Filipino-American War, or, the effects of depleted uranium on Iraqis, or anything in between) is because it represents the world and America Jeremiah Wright grew up in and with.  to expect him to have no hostility is just the naivety of a 16-yr-old white boy with a flag on his lapel and anything he wants on his doorstep.  (and even if you were 65, you'd probably remember those pictures fondly)

the second part is what really troubles me though.  "too screwed up to fit in with mainstream society..."  apparently I need to whack off to the flag every night in order to fit in with 'mainstream society' (which, by the way, I do fit into, very much - more than I would like.)  but you know the quote, "all progress have come from people who have taken unpopular positions?"  the way the lynchings and segregation and Vietnam and everything before that and after it stopped was because people fought the machine.

think about it.  would you yell at the people sitting-in at lunch-counters and marching on Washington and boycotting buses in Montgomery for being "too screwed up!!!" "to fit in!!!"  "with mainstream society!!!"  I am 100% sure that you would have, Preston, given the opportunity, although you'd never admit it now.  if everyone in our beloved country's history had taken your attitude, you'd probably be living in a slave state and women wouldn't have the right to vote.

does that bother you?  maybe not.  but it bothers just about everyone else, here in "mainstream society."

[jokerman]

No, Tweed, you've got it wrong in your assumptions about me and the progress of humanity.  Now I can't blame you much for the former, just taking what I've posted here.  Now I may be a "[17] year old white boy with a flag on his lapel and anything he wants on his doorstep," but that doesn't mean that I don't have the capacity for understanding history like anyone else, and more importantly, applying that understanding towards the good and progress of humanity  (It especially doesn't mean, and I am offended by this notion, that I don't have the capacity for a conscience).  As much as was accomplished in the 60s (as you cite as an example), it was the excesses resulting from the same mentality you're espousing that caused much hostility and, eventually, reactionary movement.  Long term progress has come overwhelmingly from people like me, the bulwark of society, rather than the outcasts of society.

[exopolitician]

I couldn't care less what he has to say.

The only people who care what he says are Republicans looking for something twist their knickers another turn.

^^

[agcatter]

What did the jackass have to say about Tiger Woods.? I hadn't heard that one.  Yhat one ought to be really entertaining.  What a moonbat this guy is.

[Alcon]

I'd still like to hear you elaborate on this, Preston.  Sorry if you're busy; I just want to make sure you saw it.

(You lapel-wearing bastard )

[Bay Ridge, Bklyn! Born and Bred]

"God Damn America"?  I'm offended like any other patriotic American.

Patriotism is nothing more than a mass psychosis.  Like organized religion.