question for the libertarians (re:medicaid)

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

i understand that.

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

but i absolutely disagree that the health care of the wealthy is more important than the health care of the poor or middle class.

health care is a human right.  everyone should be entitled to top quality health care, regardless of their income.

[opebo]

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

What nonsense you both accept.  Your owners do not 'work hard' - they are in a position of political power.  The State has allocated them 'ownership', in other words control of you, workers.  Any reallocation of a small portion of this privilege in order to provide health care for commoners is not an initiation of State interference but merely a reduction in its one-sidedness!

Mitty,  you are not a 'loser', you are a worker.  All workers are by definition losing, but there is absolutely no personal responsibility for it.  Please try to understand the situation and back unions and the left.  You too David S.

[Inverted Things]

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

I (along with libertarians) think it's immoral to use other people's resources for your own gain without providing something of equal value in return. Our morality arguments therefore cancel each other out.

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You're not a loser. Get rid of that mentality. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Everyone is entitled to top quality medical care, but if the doctors are providing the service, they need to be paid. As you wish it to be done, the doctors would indeed get paid... out of everyone elses pockets. Thus everyone else is providing healthcare for you. What does everyone get in return?

I can't resist returning to the morality subject. Let's look at a "society" of one person stranded on a desert island. He'd better learn how to get food (the most basic wealth) or he'll surely die. Is this immoral? If so, who exactly is being immoral to him?

[Inverted Things]

\
What nonsense you both accept.  Your owners do not 'work hard' - they are in a position of political power.

Opebo, there is a fundamental axiom of economics that apparently eludes your grasp: People get rich by making something people want and are willing to pay for.

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The state has done nothing of the sort. Is it really that unbelieveable that the brightest 10% of people create 95% of the wealth? I don't think so.

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Unions are awful things from the perspective of an ambitious, intelligent young person. Invariably, unions value seniority. An ambitous, intelligent worker may be the best qualified for a promotion and a raise, but the union will only allow the longest tenured worker to be promoted.

I'm not saying that all unions are bad. If I worked in coal mines, for instance, I would certainly want to be part of a union. In a coal mine, the difference between the least productive and most productive workers is fairly small. Teaching, however, is very different. There is an enormous difference between good teachers and bad teachers, and the teachers' union favors old, bad teachers over young, good teachers.

[David S]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

i understand that.

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

but i absolutely disagree that the health care of the wealthy is more important than the health care of the poor or middle class.

health care is a human right.  everyone should be entitled to top quality health care, regardless of their income.

Well let's look at some similar situations:  My next door neighbor lost his home last year. The bank foreclosed on it. Its really a shame, because over the 6 or 7 years he lived there he probably put about $25,000 into improvements. But now he's lost it all. I would guess that his mortgage payment was roughly equal to what a healthcare plan for a family would cost. In my estimation a home is even more of a necessity of life than healthcare insurance. So should the government have paid his mortgage costs? Should government provide "top quality" homes to everyone? Aren't food, and clothing necessities too? Should government provide those things to everyone? And how about a car? In many parts of the country a car is a necessity. Should the government provide "top quality"  cars (Mercedes) for everyone? Should the government just take 100% of everyone's income and then provide them with everything the government thinks they need?

That last step would make the country 100% socialist in my opinion. Maybe you could even call it communist. I think that prospect might rankle even you. But aren't each of the things I mentioned just another step toward that ultimate outcome?

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

i understand that.

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

but i absolutely disagree that the health care of the wealthy is more important than the health care of the poor or middle class.

health care is a human right.  everyone should be entitled to top quality health care, regardless of their income.

Well let's look at some similar situations:  My next door neighbor lost his home last year. The bank foreclosed on it. Its really a shame, because over the 6 or 7 years he lived there he probably put about $25,000 into improvements. But now he's lost it all. I would guess that his mortgage payment was roughly equal to what a healthcare plan for a family would cost. In my estimation a home is even more of a necessity of life than healthcare insurance. So should the government have paid his mortgage costs? Should government provide "top quality" homes to everyone? Aren't food, and clothing necessities too? Should government provide those things to everyone? And how about a car? In many parts of the country a car is a necessity. Should the government provide "top quality"  cars (Mercedes) for everyone? Should the government just take 100% of everyone's income and then provide them with everything the government thinks they need?

That last step would make the country 100% socialist in my opinion. Maybe you could even call it communist. I think that prospect might rankle even you. But aren't each of the things I mentioned just another step toward that ultimate outcome?

no i dont think the government should make anyone's mortgage payment.

but i certainly support section 8 assistance.  that program should be expanded.

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

[NewFederalist]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

[WalterMitty]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

low blow.

ive already admitted im a loser.

but i know how it feels to be sick with little means to see a doctor.  it isnt fun.  going through hell kind of makes you passionate about some things.

[John Dibble]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

[Inverted Things]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

low blow.

Agreed.

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Like Dibble just said, knock that sh**t off. Shake off your attitude of inferiority, get up, and fight back!

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Been there. I agree that it's not fun. We're fairly similar in this regard, Walter: I've been sick without insurance or money, and I also have a certain propensity for depression. You seem to be well aware of which mis-steps led you to your current situation, while the mistakes I made a couple of years ago remind me painfully of how stupid I was.

My situation got better. Yours will too, provided you quit wallowing in depression and put a lot of energy into it.

[MaC]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

True.  This is probably making you sicker than any virus could.  The great thing is that this can be treated for free-just develop a good sense of self-esteem.  (the lack thereof must be why you're so adamant about attacking parties that get .5% of the vote)

[opebo]

\
What nonsense you both accept.  Your owners do not 'work hard' - they are in a position of political power.

Opebo, there is a fundamental axiom of economics that apparently eludes your grasp: People get rich by making something people want and are willing to pay for.

No, Yak, those things are made by their workers.  They reap the benefits because of political power ('ownership of capital').

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The state has done nothing of the sort. Is it really that unbelieveable that the brightest 10% of people create 95% of the wealth? I don't think so.[/quote]

That is absurd, Yak.  'Brightness' has absolutely nothing to do with being of the owning class.  If more wealth comes into the possession of the owner through application of some cleverness, you can be assured it is not his own, but some worker he is utilizing (engineers, scientists, etc).

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Absurd.  The young brownnoser might like to believe this, but every worker does better with a union, for the simple reason that he will get old, sick, and incapacitated too.. and anyway ability and so forth is not rewarded much or consistently, and like all crumbs thrown workers, is insignificant in comparison to the privileges of the owner.

[David S]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

ive already admitted im a loser.

Walter I never called you a loser and you should not think of yourself that way. All of us make mistakes and some of them are extremely painful. As the oldest geezer on the forum I can tell you I've made my share of them.

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My neighbor who lost his house probably went through hell too. Not only did he suffer a financial loss but was also faced with the question of where is he going to live. So he probably felt he had as much need for government help as you do, but government doesn't do mortgage payments, nor should they in my opinion. Yeah life's lessons can be painful but without that fear of pain we would have little incentive to make good decisions. Why worry -the government will take care of me.  

Capitalism provides incentives for working hard and making good decisions, and it provides unpleasant lessons for not doing those things. Its kind of a carrot and a stick approach that drives us all to be productive people. Communism provides a different incentive; work or we'll kill you. Between the two I'll take capitalism.

Earlier you said food, shelter and healthcare are necessities and you implied that government should provide them. For some people those things would be all they need. They might say I don't need anything else, so why should I work? It would be kind of a lite version of Opebo's "generous welfare benefits for those who choose not to work." The result would be  a lot of people who don't work and are supported by the tax dollars of those who still get up every day and go to work. Its rather unfair to the ones who still put in their sweat equity, don't you think?

[opebo]

The result would be  a lot of people who don't work and are supported by the tax dollars of those who still get up every day and go to work. Its rather unfair to the ones who still put in their sweat equity, don't you think?

Good heavens, isn't it obvious David S? There is already a class of people who don't work and are supported by those who get up every day and go to work - the owners.

[WalterMitty]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

ive already admitted im a loser.

Walter I never called you a loser and you should not think of yourself that way. All of us make mistakes and some of them are extremely painful. As the oldest geezer on the forum I can tell you I've made my share of them.

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My neighbor who lost his house probably went through hell too. Not only did he suffer a financial loss but was also faced with the question of where is he going to live. So he probably felt he had as much need for government help as you do, but government doesn't do mortgage payments, nor should they in my opinion. Yeah life's lessons can be painful but without that fear of pain we would have little incentive to make good decisions. Why worry -the government will take care of me. 

Capitalism provides incentives for working hard and making good decisions, and it provides unpleasant lessons for not doing those things. Its kind of a carrot and a stick approach that drives us all to be productive people. Communism provides a different incentive; work or we'll kill you. Between the two I'll take capitalism.

Earlier you said food, shelter and healthcare are necessities and you implied that government should provide them. For some people those things would be all they need. They might say I don't need anything else, so why should I work? It would be kind of a lite version of Opebo's "generous welfare benefits for those who choose not to work." The result would be  a lot of people who don't work and are supported by the tax dollars of those who still get up every day and go to work. Its rather unfair to the ones who still put in their sweat equity, don't you think?

do you honestly believe people are going to quit work just so they can go on section 8 and food stamps?

[WalterMitty]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

True.  This is probably making you sicker than any virus could.  The great thing is that this can be treated for free-just develop a good sense of self-esteem.  (the lack thereof must be why you're so adamant about attacking parties that get .5% of the vote)

you dont know my situation (other than the info ive volunteered on here, which is very little)

obviously, i do suffer from lack of self esteem.  you have no idea of the root causes of that.  if it was so easy to just snap out of it and pull myself up by the bootstraps, dont you think i would have done that long ago?

oh  i try every day.  god only knows how much i try.

[David S]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

ive already admitted im a loser.

Walter I never called you a loser and you should not think of yourself that way. All of us make mistakes and some of them are extremely painful. As the oldest geezer on the forum I can tell you I've made my share of them.

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My neighbor who lost his house probably went through hell too. Not only did he suffer a financial loss but was also faced with the question of where is he going to live. So he probably felt he had as much need for government help as you do, but government doesn't do mortgage payments, nor should they in my opinion. Yeah life's lessons can be painful but without that fear of pain we would have little incentive to make good decisions. Why worry -the government will take care of me. 

Capitalism provides incentives for working hard and making good decisions, and it provides unpleasant lessons for not doing those things. Its kind of a carrot and a stick approach that drives us all to be productive people. Communism provides a different incentive; work or we'll kill you. Between the two I'll take capitalism.

Earlier you said food, shelter and healthcare are necessities and you implied that government should provide them. For some people those things would be all they need. They might say I don't need anything else, so why should I work? It would be kind of a lite version of Opebo's "generous welfare benefits for those who choose not to work." The result would be  a lot of people who don't work and are supported by the tax dollars of those who still get up every day and go to work. Its rather unfair to the ones who still put in their sweat equity, don't you think?

do you honestly believe people are going to quit work just so they can go on section 8 and food stamps?

Absolutely. In fact that was the situation before Bill Clinton signed welfare reform into law. There were generations of people growing up on welfare and believing it was their right to do so. Now most of those folks are working. In my opinion that's something that Bill Clinton did right, for at least two reasons:
First it takes some of the burden off the backs of those who do work for a living. The second one I can't prove, but did you ever wonder what a healthy young person who doesn't have to work does with his time? Ever hear the expression ; "Idle hands are the devil's tools"? Well crime rates have dropped significantly since that time, so maybe there is a relationship there.

The "idle hands" expression is an ancient one, but Senator Joe Biden once used it as a reason for funding midnight basketball. He said his grandmother frequently used that expression. Happily midnight basketball didn't happen, and I doubt that Joe's grandmother had that in mind when she used the expression. More likely she used it as a prelude to this line; "Now get your butt to work." Judging by the crime stats I'd say she was right.

[MaC]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

True.  This is probably making you sicker than any virus could.  The great thing is that this can be treated for free-just develop a good sense of self-esteem.  (the lack thereof must be why you're so adamant about attacking parties that get .5% of the vote)

you dont know my situation (other than the info ive volunteered on here, which is very little)

you never bothered sharing with me.  How can expect me to empahise if you don't trust me?

[John Dibble]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

True.  This is probably making you sicker than any virus could.  The great thing is that this can be treated for free-just develop a good sense of self-esteem.  (the lack thereof must be why you're so adamant about attacking parties that get .5% of the vote)

you dont know my situation (other than the info ive volunteered on here, which is very little)

obviously, i do suffer from lack of self esteem.  you have no idea of the root causes of that.  if it was so easy to just snap out of it and pull myself up by the bootstraps, dont you think i would have done that long ago?

oh  i try every day.  god only knows how much i try.

Getting out of that mentality can take time, sure. Just keep in mind that every human being on this planet makes mistakes, and even winners make some horrible ones now and again. Just don't make things worse by calling yourself a loser - if you start thinking like that either tell yourself you're not or at the very least change the subject matter you're thinking of. (in other words don't brood on it) Resolve yourself to better your situation and not repeat past mistakes. Just remember that a self-defeating attitude isn't going to change anything, so there's really no point in having one.