Should John Muhammad be executed?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Options 1 and 3

Welcome to the dark side bro.

[Gustaf]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

I never bought this argument. If he hasn't killed himself, he obviously doesn't see it as being let off the hook.

[Joe Republic]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

I never bought this argument. If he hasn't killed himself, he obviously doesn't see it as being let off the hook.

That's often because the criminal himself buys into the "afterlife" concept.  My point remains that he only received seven years of punishment for murdering ten people.  That is not justice.

Anyway, it's usually harder to kill yourself in prison than you think.  What's more, keeping yourself alive for as long as possible extends the possibility that you'll somehow be paroled eventually.

[Gustaf]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

I never bought this argument. If he hasn't killed himself, he obviously doesn't see it as being let off the hook.

That's often because the criminal himself buys into the "afterlife" concept.  My point remains that he only received seven years of punishment for murdering ten people.  That is not justice.

I don't really follow your definition of punishment. Whether something is punishing or not, imo, depends on what the reciever of the punishment thinks, not what you or I think.

In most cases, anyone who is still alive tends to view death as the worse option. Knowing that this is your fate is, by most accounts, one of the worse punishments there are.

[Joe Republic]

Even if that were true, that's pretty disturbing.  Incarceration for serious offenses needs to be so awful that death would be seen as a relief, and would then be denied to them.

[Gustaf]

Even if that were true, that's pretty disturbing.  Incarceration for serious offenses needs to be so awful that death would be seen as a relief, and would then be denied to them.

That is hard to reach unless resorting to barbarian prisons. People don't want to die. Even when put under the most miserable circumstances almost everyone tries to stay alive. I think people wish for death only when put under extreme torture or when extremely depresses due to special circumstances.

Not even most suicides are really volitional, but more accidental in nature.

[Lunar]

It's an interesting debate, actually.  I've always sort of had the opinion that prison time should be short and extremely uncomfortable for people who won't be there for their entire lives, and should be humane as possible while being as cheap as possible (with little interest in comfort outside of human rights obligations) for those who have to be there for their entire lives.  I'm not sure how that actually breaks down though.  Should life-terms be worse than death?  While it may be that way for some, as Gustaf mentions, I think 99% of people would rather have life no matter how bad it is.

[Joe Republic]

I think you're putting a little too much faith in the strength of that particular human instinct, Gustaf.  But then it's also fair to say that we're both being subjective here, and thus this is a rather pointless aspect to focus on.

All I am saying is that people who argue that the death penalty is the worst form of punishment available are truly missing the bigger picture.

[Lunar]

All I am saying is that people who argue that the death penalty is the worst form of punishment available are truly missing the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture is to ask people who are about to commit a crime if they care if the result is the death penalty of life in prison...and I think people who commit such a violent crime to warrant either of those results either (1) think that they won't get caught or (2) are so psychotic they don't think about it at all....and in either case, how harsh the death penalty is or life in prison is does not act as a deterrent.  

I mean, how many people rationally consider the consequences of a murder, while weighing them against the advantages, and decide not to do it?  

[Joe Republic]

All I am saying is that people who argue that the death penalty is the worst form of punishment available are truly missing the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture is to ask people who are about to commit a crime if they care if the result is the death penalty of life in prison...and I think people who commit such a violent crime to warrant either of those results either (1) think that they won't get caught or (2) are so psychotic they don't think about it at all....and in either case, how harsh the death penalty is or life in prison is does not act as a deterrent. 

I mean, how many people rationally consider the consequences of a murder, while weighing them against the advantages, and decide not to do it? 

Oh I'm fully aware of that.  No matter what kind of punishments people could come up with, violent crime will always exist.  This is why the entire crime and punishment discussion misses the mark so often.

[Lunar]

Okay, I'm just always pretty much in vocal opposition to the idea that death penalty can in any way deter crime.

And without deterrence, it's pretty hard to codify some specific concept of "justice" in killing someone instead of locking them up outside of it making you feel good since even in the amoral interpretation...I believe I've heard it costs more to execute prisoners (if you consider the costs of the automatic appeals etc.) than lock them up for live.  [messy sentence, apologies]

I'm not sure how many people on death row have escaped in the last century only to kill again, but I bet it's a really small number.  It's probably because they are heavily secure rather than because they were to be killed.  And innocent people have been killed in U.S.-run execution chambers, of course.

I probably COULD be persuaded to the idea of poetic justice in extreme circumstances, such as taking Osama and letting him go hang out in the streets of New York without having any police around to witness.  But that's only in rare circumstances where poetry needs to triumph

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

I never bought this argument. If he hasn't killed himself, he obviously doesn't see it as being let off the hook.

I wonder if any death penalty supporters complained when Ken Lay died.