What's going to be the main issue in Michigan in November?

[J. J.]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

[zombones]

Seriously, this is what will happen.

Dems to Michigan:  McCain says he "doesn't know much about the economy."

Michigan:  *Votes Obama*

[NOVA Green]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

[J. J.]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

[NOVA Green]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

I'm sure he is in favor of seating them, and is waiting until this weekend to see what the Rules Committee comes up with. Granted, playing the clock on this one might hurt more than help considering that now the real game is the one coming up in November and he needs to get this delegate issue behind him fast.

[Verily]

is this thread serious? 

it's gonna be gay rights and gun abortions or something. 

seriously, why is this thread existing?

Gun abortions? I would kill babies to make this election about gun abortions!

For serious, what Alcon said. With the added qualification that the number of Clinton supporters doing this sort of rationalization in earnest is very small, Hillaryis44 small (which means a few tens of thousand of voters nationwide, or a few hundred in Michigan).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

He's already said he'll accept the 69-59 compromise, which is what the Rules Committee looks likely toward implementing. The delegate is NOT getting seated as is, that's pretty obvious.

[Nym90]

A dispute about DNC rules which became moot 2 months earlier, and of course Jeremiah Wright.

What other issues are there?

[Nym90]

Undoubtedly the economy, which Jennifer Granholm put down the drain in that state.

Which is why she won 56 percent of the vote in 2006, right?

It has been going downhill for far longer than that, and Granholm can't do anything about US trade policy and the like.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Economy, although the DNC rules were brought up when Debbie Dingell (D) and Saul Anuzias (MI GOP Chair) were on WJR talking about the convention (or whatever it is) in Mackinac.  Mark Brewer (Dem Chair) showed up too late for the interview.

[J. J.]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

He's already said he'll accept the 69-59 compromise, which is what the Rules Committee looks likely toward implementing. The delegate is NOT getting seated as is, that's pretty obvious.

That's very generous, considering Clinton now has 80.    Basically, seat them all, grab as many (which is probably most) of undecideds, and move on.

BTW, I raised this issue sometime before March.  BRTD was convinced it would go away.  It obviously hasn't.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

He's already said he'll accept the 69-59 compromise, which is what the Rules Committee looks likely toward implementing. The delegate is NOT getting seated as is, that's pretty obvious.

That's very generous, considering Clinton now has 80.    Basically, seat them all, grab as many (which is probably most) of undecideds, and move on.

Not even the Michigan Democratic Party is demanding that anymore. They're the ones who proposed the 69-59 compromise in the first place.

[Torie]

The main issue in Michigan will be who can be relied on most to be a rifle shot trade protectionist, and gas guzzler friend, to help Michigan while screwing the Fruited Plain at large, while handing out the most generous taxpayer dollars to overpaid but now redundant union auto workers. It ain't a pretty sight!

[J. J.]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

He's already said he'll accept the 69-59 compromise, which is what the Rules Committee looks likely toward implementing. The delegate is NOT getting seated as is, that's pretty obvious.

That's very generous, considering Clinton now has 80.    Basically, seat them all, grab as many (which is probably most) of undecideds, and move on.

Not even the Michigan Democratic Party is demanding that anymore. They're the ones who proposed the 69-59 compromise in the first place.

Neither candidate has to worry about that.  This is Obama's last best chance to solve this.  Just solve it and get it out of the without creating abny (more) repercussions for the General.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Have you noticed the bad state of the economy in the United States, or have you been in imaginary land?

this thread is pointless, that is my point

It was started by Li'l Zach the Barack Hack, so what do you expect?

MI is potentially one of those swing states.  Even if it makes 1% of the electorate stay home, it could make a difference.  If it were MA, there would be much less of a problem.

I don't doubt that there will be at least a marginal negative effect on Obama because of the seating of Michigan's delegates. However, he is only one of many different actors here, and unlike Florida his name was not on the ballot, so there is a weaker case for seating Michigan's delegates according to voting percentages... There have been multiple well-publicized proposals for a compromise from different quarters, and Obama doesn't look like the only intransigent actor on this one.

The key problem for Obama is that he hasn't had a chance to travel the state and introduce himself to voters through local media, which usually tends to result in more positive coverage than national media. Will he have enough time to build a statewide organization and make an argument that he understands Michigan's problems more than McCain?

He didn't get behind the "firehouse primary."

It is weaker claim, but it should have been fixed.  At this point, he should get behind seating them and grab as many as possible of the undecided.

He's already said he'll accept the 69-59 compromise, which is what the Rules Committee looks likely toward implementing. The delegate is NOT getting seated as is, that's pretty obvious.

That's very generous, considering Clinton now has 80.    Basically, seat them all, grab as many (which is probably most) of undecideds, and move on.

Not even the Michigan Democratic Party is demanding that anymore. They're the ones who proposed the 69-59 compromise in the first place.

Neither candidate has to worry about that.  This is Obama's last best chance to solve this.  Just solve it and get it out of the without creating abny (more) repercussions for the General.

Obama's chance? Obama doesn't sit on the Democratic Rules Committee. And the 69-59 solution is what they're looking toward. But that would end up with a delegation and put an end to the "issue" so who cares?

[opebo]

The main issue in Michigan will be who can be relied on most to be a rifle shot trade protectionist, and gas guzzler friend, to help Michigan while screwing the Fruited Plain at large, while handing out the most generous taxpayer dollars to overpaid but now redundant union auto workers. It ain't a pretty sight!

My god you can swallow some propaganda, Torie.

'Redundant'?  One is not redundant merely because one has been replaced by a slave in Mexico or China.  As for screwing the Fruity Plain, no, Americans have always bought GM cars because - I know this is hard for you to understand - they prefered them to the Japanese and European stuff.  Why?  They suited their driving style, they were cheap and comfortable.  Of course this has all changed now that 'high tech' has crept in, and GM makes unreliable, revvy junk just like the foreigners.  Anyway the main point is that no one forced them to buy GM or Ford.

Most of what you resent and abhor about Michigan is the result of it containing at least some working-class voters who understand their own interests and vote in it.  If the whole country were this competent, we'd be as well off as Europe.. but alas we're a third world state governed by demagoguery.

[Torie]

You changed gears from the usual fare class warrior jihadism to something about freedom of consumer preference for buying  GM and Ford in almost mid sentence, and left me flummoxed and confused!  Good move! Confusing the "enemy" is job one. Cheers.

[Aizen]

opebo vs torie

duel of the century

let's do this

[opebo]

You changed gears from the usual fare class warrior jihadism to something about freedom of consumer preference for buying  GM and Ford in almost mid sentence, and left me flummoxed and confused!  Good move! Confusing the "enemy" is job one. Cheers.

Yes.  Of course such 'freedom' is deceptively named.  It is really a power, and quite probably not in the hands of the buyer.  But I just wanted to make the point that a great many midwesterners and Southerners prefer a different type of car from coastal americans.  This is somewhat an aside from politics.

[NOVA Green]

The main issue in Michigan will be who can be relied on most to be a rifle shot trade protectionist, and gas guzzler friend, to help Michigan while screwing the Fruited Plain at large, while handing out the most generous taxpayer dollars to overpaid but now redundant union auto workers. It ain't a pretty sight!

That's the problem with only having one main manufacturing sector rather than a more diversified industrial base....

Michigan does have a major advantage in having a highly trained industrial workforce.... the question is how can the state markets its many assets and attract new types of businesses, start-ups, and public-private sector partnerships while competing against Kentucky, Alabama, and Texas.

Unless the auto unions are actually able to organize many of the southern auto and auto-parts plants, it will not be a location that new auto-sector jobs will be created in.... Not that I am a fan of abolishing the closed shop and offering corporate relocation subsidies, but Michigan is just not that attractive for those fewer new jobs being created.

[opebo]

...the question is how can the state markets its many assets and attract new types of businesses, start-ups, and public-private sector partnerships while competing against Kentucky, Alabama, and Texas.

Easy, offer Chinese level wages.  hmm.

[NOVA Green]

...the question is how can the state markets its many assets and attract new types of businesses, start-ups, and public-private sector partnerships while competing against Kentucky, Alabama, and Texas.

Easy, offer Chinese level wages.  hmm.

Well, Oregon went from being a predominately timber state towards increasingly high-tech in only a few decades.... I would think that the average workers skill-set is higher in the auto sector than timber. Granted globalization does punish inland industrial states more than coastal regions... but what manufacturing jobs in America can expect to reach an average $50/Hour rate of compensation?

Why hasn't the UAW been able to unionize the South and the outsourced non-union parts-production plants?

I agree in many regards that the government should protect domestic manufacturing jobs to some extent, while not adopting extreme protectionism. The problem with the American auto sector, from the union perspective, is non-union shops nationally existing side by side with union shops, able to "underbid" the old auto areas of the Midwest. So, Chinese labor really isn't as relevant as the industry effectively (in an old coal mining term) double-breasting to undermine the union, while maintaining competitiveness with non-union competitors.

[Torie]

We do know that union can only affect wages in oligopolistic industries, and monopolistic government don't we? And then there is this delphic comment with Marcusian overtones to the effect that, "such 'freedom' is deceptively named.  It is really a power, and quite probably not in the hands of the buyer."  I am sure it has some meaning buried within the riddle of the words.