Democrats & Indies: If Iraq were not an issue...
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  Democrats & Indies: If Iraq were not an issue...
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Poll
Question: ...would you then be voting for John McCain
#1
Definitely
 
#2
Possibly
 
#3
No, still too many other problems with the guy.
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 65

Author Topic: Democrats & Indies: If Iraq were not an issue...  (Read 3163 times)
Keystone Phil
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« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2008, 12:48:29 PM »



Well, that is what Pat Robertson said before Roe was handed down. It was all about evolution and black people before that.

Roll Eyes

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John Paul Stevens may be a Republican and was appointed under a Republican President but that does not make him conservative or moderate.
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Person Man
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2008, 12:54:38 PM »

Yes. But Stevens is NO Brennan or Marshall. He usually wrote with Blackmun. I would say he is a progressive centrist, but no more.

In fact, I would say this-

Stevens- Progressive Centrist
Ginsburg- Progressive Centrist
Breyer- Progressive Centrist
Souter- Progressive Centrist
Kennedy- Conservative Centrist
Roberts-  Mainline Conservative
Alito- Ultra-Conservative (maybe he is a reactionary)
Scalia- Ultra-Conservative
Thomas- Ultra-Conservative 


My understanding political jurisprudence is that the radical will have the federal constitution government act as a floor for individual rights and as a ceiling for government power and the reactionary, the opposite.

That's why legalizing pot is considered a federal issue while banning abortion is considered a states' rights issue for the far right.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2008, 01:07:29 PM »

Yes. But Stevens is NO Brennan or Marshall. He usually wrote with Blackmun. I would say he is a progressive centrist, but no more.

In fact, I would say this-

Stevens- Progressive Centrist
Ginsburg- Progressive Centrist
Breyer- Progressive Centrist
Souter- Progressive Centrist
Kennedy- Conservative Centrist
Roberts-  Mainline Conservative
Alito- Ultra-Conservative (maybe he is a reactionary)
Scalia- Ultra-Conservative
Thomas- Ultra-Conservative 


My understanding political jurisprudence is that the radical will have the federal constitution government act as a floor for individual rights and as a ceiling for government power and the reactionary, the opposite.

That's why legalizing pot is considered a federal issue while banning abortion is considered a states' rights issue for the far right.

Roll Eyes

Stevens is a liberal. Enough with the coded "Progressive centrist" or "Moderately liberal conservative" or whatever.
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Person Man
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2008, 01:09:02 PM »

Maybe he has liberal leanings, but he isn't a liberal liberal.
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JSojourner
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« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2008, 03:24:54 PM »

But, JSoujourner, I think we've had this discussion before. McCain's point was very simple with the 100 years thing. People ask "how long should we be in Iraq" His precise point, when you hear the comment in context, is that this does not matter, as the examples of Germany and South Korea show. What does matter is the level of violence. If that is fixed the number of years would not be an issue. Of course, as Morden pointed out, you can argue that the violence will not decrease. What McCain effectively did was getting away from that point.


If that's the case -- and I am sure you're right -- then McCain was fudging or parsing.  There was no straight talk express on this issue.  He cannot have it both ways.  Either Iraq can be made safe with the troops we have, or it cannot be made safe.  Since he refuses to call for more boots on the ground, we must assume he believes it can be made safe with the troops we have -- a large number of whom are on their third and fourth tour.  Just what is his plan to accomplish that?  Certainly not the surge, which has been a miserable failure. Casualties, both US and Iraqi have exceeded the numbers from last year for every month in 2007. Sectarian violence is out of hand and more complex than ever.  Rockets and mortar rounds are falling again in the green zone, which is supposed to be one of the safest parts of the country.

So Mac better put forth a plan for "making Iraq safe" like yesterday.  Or he'd better stop claiming to be any different than any other politician.  Straight talk, my ass.  Yeah, I know his supporters say he understands the difference between Korea, Germany and Iraq. Fine, I'll accept that.  Then that can only lead me to believe that...

A.    He thinks Iraq is now safe for US troops
B.    He thinks Iraq can quickly be made safe for US troops with the forces we have.
C.    He has a secret plan to put in a lot more troops once he's elected, thereby making Iraq safe
       for US troops.
D.    He really plans to pull out, but lacks the balls to say so for fear of losing the cash contributions
       of defense contractors and pro-war supporters.

If A is true, he's a moron.  I don't believe that for a minute.  (Bush, yes.  McCain, no.)

If B is true, he should explain what he has in mind.  And he'd better be bloody convincing, because his surge idea was a limp, flaccid little exercise in futility.

If C is true, he's a typical politician -- no better than Senator Sniper Fire or Senator I Must Have Missed That Sermon.  (Because if you're running for President and planning a massive troop surge, you'd better man-up and say so now.)

If D is true, it's certainly the best we can hope for.  But it still makes him a liar.  Or, a "misspeaker".

Now perhaps my naivete is showing, I and need to wise up.  They are all politicians.  Fine.  But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.  Or, to put it nicely, don't tell me it's straight talk when it's obviously more of the same b-s we've been putting up with since forever.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2008, 04:53:06 PM »

I think it's somewhere between B and C. Let's say B with C as a fall-back. And I don't think it's universally agreed that the surge is a complete failure.

I understand that your comments are directed against McCain and not me, but I never said he was a non-politician who would never fudge on anything, etc. He think America should stay in Iraq and has defended that position unflinchingly. That is pretty straight-talking, imo. The 100-years comment is also something which is, after all, unsuually straight-talking for a politician. I'd say that he's asking for a mandate to deal with the situation. It isn't really entirely realistic to expect a candidate to outline in precise detail what they want to do in Iraq, given the potential need for secrecy and their possible lack of all the necessary information.
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classical liberal
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« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2008, 12:11:29 AM »

I think it's somewhere between B and C. Let's say B with C as a fall-back. And I don't think it's universally agreed that the surge is a complete failure.

I have a feeling that you're right.

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A post-modern American election during which voters have realistic expectations of their candidates???  But that would require that Americans stop watching reality TV, double fisting Big Macs, and popping Zanex and actually engage reality long enough to get a sense of what is realistic Tongue .
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perdedor
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« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2008, 12:17:49 AM »

If Iraq, health care, social issues, foreign policy, and the economy were not issues...then yes, I may consider a vote for McCain. Ultimately, I would probably decide against it.
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I spent the winter writing songs about getting better
BRTD
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« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2008, 01:00:49 AM »

If Iraq, health care, social issues, foreign policy, and the economy were not issues...then yes, I may consider a vote for McCain. Ultimately, I would probably decide against it.

So what would be an issue in this case then?
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