Which was the bigger HC during WW2: Japan or Italy?

[Goldwater]

Of course the bombs were justified, how is this still a topic of serious debate?

On a related note, I don't understand people who hate Truman because of the bombs but still like FDR. What makes them think that FDR wouldn't have done the same thing?

[KaiserDave]

I think the gap is probably closer than people think if you view crimes against humanity on a per capita basis. What Italy did in Ethiopia and Libya was absolutely comparable to the practices of the Japanese in China and the Philippines, but I would agree that the Japanese were worse. If it is not a per capita discussion, then Japan obviously is immeasurably worse.

[LBJer]

Of course the bombs were justified, how is this still a topic of serious debate?

Because to many people it's anything but clear they WERE justified.

[LBJer]

Japan, but that doesn’t justify dropping the bombs.

Maybe not, but lots and lots of things justified dropping the bombs.

While I won't say the bombs were clearly unjustified, saying "lots and lots of things" doesn't help your case--it sounds like you're stringing things together the way the George W. Bush administration did to justify attacking Iraq. 

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Japan, but that doesn’t justify dropping the bombs.

Maybe not, but lots and lots of things justified dropping the bombs.

No they're never justified.

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

It most certainly does not. Even if you take the strongest possible line on the dropping of the atomic bombs, it isn't even close: the two would barely be on the same map.

[KaiserDave]

Japan, but that doesn’t justify dropping the bombs.

Maybe not, but lots and lots of things justified dropping the bombs.

No they're never justified.

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

Heavens no.

[Antonio the Sixth]

In retrospect and with our current understanding of the various actors' motivations, it's pretty much undeniable that dropping the bombs was a horrific mistake, based on faulty assumptions and a questionable sense of priorities on the part of the Department of State especially. But at the end of the day, these are the kind of mistakes many governments make, most of all in in times of war. It's hard to judge people too harshly when you've never been in the condition to have to make this kind of choice.

Japan's war crimes in China, Korea etc. were no mistake. They were a purposeful campaign of terror designed to assert domination and extract resources from a civilian population. In many ways, they're more akin to the very worst of European colonialism, which as you can imagine is saying a lot.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Japan, but that doesn’t justify dropping the bombs.

Maybe not, but lots and lots of things justified dropping the bombs.

No they're never justified.

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

Heavens no.

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

[KaiserDave]

Japan, but that doesn’t justify dropping the bombs.

Maybe not, but lots and lots of things justified dropping the bombs.

No they're never justified.

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

Heavens no.

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

Not what I’m arguing. You said the bombs make as America as criminal as Japan, I said that isn’t true.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

That is only because the unconditionally surrendered before the first nukes were tested, because the nukes were designed to be dropped on Germany not Japan.

Yes they were justified, and it 100% saved more lives than it cost. If we had the nukes in Jan of 1945 , wed have dropped them on Germany and there would have been far fewer deaths in WW2 than in OTL.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

That is only because the unconditionally surrendered before the first nukes were tested, because the nukes were designed to be dropped on Germany not Japan.

Yes they were justified, and it 100% saved more lives than it cost. If we had the nukes in Jan of 1945 , wed have dropped them on Germany and there would have been far fewer deaths in WW2 than in OTL.

So, let's turn things around.

Imagine the cold war would have become a warm war. And the USSR wants to force the US to surrender to postpone a long war, by dropping bombs on the US territory to force the US to unconditionally surrender (meaning USSR for Eurasia and Americas for America).

It probably would not have been justified i think?

Even if it would have indeed saved lives.

And also if you say: no. Ask yourself the same but reversed, "when the USSR is being invaded", and the US drops them again to end the war sooner.

"America is morally superior to any other nation, or to the USSR" is not a good answer, i'll tell you that. German citizens in a post-nazi world would have said the same if they ever dropped nukes and won the war. They would have been taught the same. "Germans dropped the nukes to end the war and force the western powers to surrender, it prevented the death of more people".

I want you to think critically (for oneself), not repeat what you have been told a thousand times, think independent and critically and look at this from a neutral POV.

[KaiserDave]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

This is only a matter of circumstance and timing, if Germany was still holding their positions on the Rhine and the Oder in Summer 1945, Berlin would have been hit with a small supernova.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

This is only a matter of circumstance and timing, if Germany was still holding their positions on the Rhine and the Oder in Summer 1945, Berlin would have been hit with a small supernova.

Yeah, and it would also not have been justified.

All i'll say is that the precedent of the nukes has been set today. It was set by America.

Any nation can do it, because it has been done before.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

That's not the issue. Are you aware of some of the things the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s?

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

That is only because the unconditionally surrendered before the first nukes were tested, because the nukes were designed to be dropped on Germany not Japan.

Yes they were justified, and it 100% saved more lives than it cost. If we had the nukes in Jan of 1945 , wed have dropped them on Germany and there would have been far fewer deaths in WW2 than in OTL.

So, let's turn things around.

Imagine the cold war would have become a warm war. And the USSR wants to force the US to surrender to postpone a long war, by dropping bombs on the US territory to force the US to unconditionally surrender (meaning USSR for Eurasia and Americas for America).

It probably would not have been justified i think?

Even if it would have indeed saved lives.

And also if you say: no. Ask yourself the same but reversed, "when the USSR is being invaded", and the US drops them again to end the war sooner.

"America is morally superior to any other nation, or to the USSR" is not a good answer, i'll tell you that. German citizens in a post-nazi world would have said the same if they ever dropped nukes and won the war. They would have been taught the same. "Germans dropped the nukes to end the war and force the western powers to surrender, it prevented the death of more people".

I want you to think critically (for oneself), not repeat what you have been told a thousand times, think independent and critically and look at this from a neutral POV.

The governments of Germany and Japan unlike the Cold War governments of the US and even USSR had to be removed under any and all circumstances as it would have been completely unacceptable to allow either of their governments to remain in place after the war . So yes you could have ended the war with Germany and Japan through a negotiated settlement and wouldn't have had to do either invade Germany/drop the bomb on Japan but a negotiated settlement would be the greater evil when it comes to WW2.

Germany and Japan had to unconstitutionally surrender and yes occupied for many years after the war so we could transform their societies .

[All Along The Watchtower]

Imagine the response if any other nation had used nukes.

Everyone would have said - no matter who - they would not have been justified.

Imagine the response if any other nation had had thousands of its civilians tortured, raped, murdered, and/or kidnapped by a genocidal terrorist group.

[°Leprechaun]

Let's not forget about what Trump's dear friend Putin has done.
How can anyone support Trump who has praised Putin?
It should be a no brainer that Trump is not a good choice for a second term.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Are you aware of some of the things the Germans did during the 1940s.

We didn't throw nukes to them.

Sorry it's never justified. Period.

I realize that English is not your first language and that this might sometimes lead to confusion but a) what the Nazis did and b) the wider morality of the dropping of the atomic bombs are not the issues at hand here. The argument of yours to which people objected was this one:

It arguably causes the US to be on the same tier as Japan when it comes to war crimes committed during WW2.

Given some of the things (and the list is very long) the Japanese military did during the 1930s and 40s, the claim would be absurd even if one were to take an especially harsh view of the morality of dropping the atomic bombs. Just for starters, you might wish to look up Unit 731.

[andre1113]

japan by a country mile.

unit 731 and nanking should put it above italy easily.